Beta 3 RC1

[SiH13]

and then be well covered by news sites that would be more likely to make news about what their readers are interested about.

Well, yeah that's logical.. lets see now what the open beta brings tomorrow

[Hylis]

Munglo,

My intention is not to please a specific group of players, but to unite most of them. I don't think that to divide the community with two modes would be the solution. We have still some weeks to look at the modes, to test them, try to balance them, make maps, improve the modes etc. If in the end, we have a stronger Elite mode, then it is positive. I think we know quite enough what Elite is, so why not take the opportunity to test more things.

I know the top teams will stay on B2, at least until the IPL, and I am happy with that. Meanwhile, I intend to see some tests being done to see if there is not an even better formula. By the way, I just added some flags for the release of tomorrow, and parameters to balance the mode.

flags are something like:
1. CustomWeaponChoice
2. ForceCustomWeaponChoice

2 is at false per default, and when it is true, 1 determines if weapon choice is forced or not.

this way, I think both modes have some chances to be tested.

the comment of pksens demonstrates well the job we have to do. We really know why the walljump have to be fixed, and it had to be. It does not prevent people to prefer the previous ones, even if it was chaotic (depending on chaotic parameters)

[pksens]

You say the walljump had to be fixed? Why is that?

Of all the things since Beta2 came out, I don't recall people complaining about the way walljumping worked, and what - if any - problems it had. It took a bit of getting used to, but nothing too difficult. You might not understand my main problem though with the new change; it's that you used to be able to slide up the wall with a specific movement and enable you to do a triple wall jump. That's a direct nerf. If you brought back that unique style, and kept the easymode walljumping along side it, then that might satisfy your curious goal to 'unite' groups of players.

[Hylis]

I read most of the post and I can do some investigations accordingly. Not because they say it is bad, but because I try to see the real trouble if there is one.

two quotes quickly taken from the forum

The walljump doesn't always work. It looks a bit random

Walljump is cool aswell, but still seems to have a random component in the result of the jump

If I was not interested, I would not read.

[sadzealot]

You say the walljump had to be fixed? Why is that?

Of all the things since Beta2 came out, I don't recall people complaining about the way walljumping worked, and what - if any - problems it had. It took a bit of getting used to, but nothing too difficult. You might not understand my main problem though with the new change; it's that you used to be able to slide up the wall with a specific movement and enable you to do a triple wall jump. That's a direct nerf. If you brought back that unique style, and kept the easymode walljumping along side it, then that might satisfy your curious goal to 'unite' groups of players.

Many players found walljumps to be "random" and hard to learn. And they should be hard to learn and master, it is part of a tricky movement-system that should require some time to learn. I would agree that they were a bit "too" sensitive sometimes on the factors that determined the outcome, but that again was mostly for the tricky walljumps that required precision and not simple easy walljumps (which is pretty much the only thing you can do now with Beta 3 walljumps).

And players that say "I don't feel a difference, but they feel much better and more controllable" just didn't understand the Beta 2 walljump system at all". That's just a fact. I won't go on too much about this, but I will quote my own blogpost about Beta 3 update (which was overwhelmingly positive, since the only disagreements I have are walljump-change + defenders choosing laser. Instant reload on hits and nucleus can be tweaked and work out nicely after testing and balancing)

Beta 3 Walljumps
This is where I get angry. This was a stupid change that is going backwards and limits gameplay overall, the exact opposite that Hyllis (one of the designers of Shootmania, very cool guy normally on their forums) says he wants to do, which is why they proposed gameplaychanges to Elite (trying to make it better for both players and spectators)

Part of the reasoning why they changed walljumps from Beta 2 to Beta 3 was this, and I quote:

too many places in maps could be reached by former walljumps, making the maps solid only with too high walls. Air control is reduced in the direction of the wall being bumped

This is absolute bullshit. Yes, the former walljumps were really powerfull, and many places that you thought unreachable could be reached. But was this a problem? Maybe on the current maps, but almost every map was made before walljumps were introduced in the game, and the problem lies there. You can't expect old maps to work well when you introduce new changes to the gameplay, espeically not one as powerfull as walljumps.

So this is where I get back to letting mapmakers decide things for us. You could've easily given mapmakers tools to decide what walls could be used for walljumps and not (Especially since you can only walljump on one type of block already, castle blocks), but you never came with such a change. Instead you changed the walljumps and made them less powerfull and less diverse. You are now doing the exact opposite thing as you say you want to do with Elite when proposing to change the gameplay. And that is upsetting me, because I think (Atleast this is what it feels like hearing part of your reasoning) the real reason you changed walljumps was because 90% of the players never bothered to learn them and complain about how random they were.

They're not. Me and my teammates spent a long time mastering Beta 2 walljumps and it allowed us to do moves very few others could do. So we got rewarded for spending time to learn something. Now that is taken away and there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to learn about walljumps anymore. Anyone can do any (of the remaining possibilities of) walljumps now. There is nothing needed to master.

You had one of the most powerfull and complex movementsystems in any game, and now you went 5 steps backwards and you have nothing. You should've given mapmakers tools to limit walljumps, not limit them overall. After all, the old style of walljumps were more exciting both as a player and spectator, and that's what you say you want, right? I'm asking you to please keep the old style of walljumps in the game and don't go forward with the changes you've done.

What you can do however is maybe make walljumps a bit less sensitive. Because they were awfully sensitive in that the game didn't always read what you wanted to do with walljumps because you jumped 3ms too late. I would rather see this changed instead of a complete nerf to walljumps alltogether. I know many players say that they don't really feel a big difference in walljumps from Beta 2 to Beta 3 except that they feel better now, and if they say this I have one thing to say: They didn't understand walljumps in Beta 2.

At the moment, I am looking at trying to make Elite better, of course, for players and spectators. Whoever try to help by providing ideas to improve, instead of going backward, I will take it.

Yes, we know you are Then tell me what is better: A more intricate movementsystem in terms of walljumps that rewards good players for learning and mastering it, or a simpler system that anyone can use for their benefit without any practice at all?

Give mapmakers tools to decide what walls can be walljumped and the intricate walljumpsystem from Beta 2 isn't a problem, but mapmakers can still create situations on maps where masters of walljumps can reap the benefits.

Again, I apologize for going on about walljumps, but I feel strongly about this and I feel your reasoning is flawed when you say you want to make it better and more exciting by taking steps forward, but you take steps backwards in terms of walljumps. Last post about this in this thread, I swear

[Hylis]

but you take steps backwards in terms of walljumps.

there were two main issues with walljumps that HAD to be corrected. It was nonsens to let how it was before. Now, if you would like us to look at how to improve them, starting from where we are, then we can work. But if you do the common thing that is to say to make it like before, you are just illustrating how useless it is to speak like that: there is no way that the previous walljumps where better, because they had big flaw, such as being dependant on the underlying geometry and the way objects were modelized without the user being capable to see. So, it meant that you can have a big diag of difference in the middle of a plain wall, it would mean that any new objects would have to be seen wireframe for you to understand how to walljump on it etc. Other issues where on it as well, that I don't want to spent time on it. It was just obvious we had to improve some stuff on it. Now, if you understand what means to go forward, and not backward, like you ended up your post.. you understand that it is better to try to find a way to make the current walljump better, instead of going backward. I am doing the same with both topics and I don't think you are right to think I am doing the opposite. Please confirm.

[sadzealot]

there were two main issues with walljumps that HAD to be corrected. It was nonsens to let how it was before. Now, if you would like us to look at how to improve them, starting from where we are, then we can work. But if you do the common thing that is to say to make it like before, you are just illustrating how useless it is to speak like that: there is no way that the previous walljumps where better, because they had big flaw, such as being dependant on the underlying geometry and the way objects were modelized without the user being capable to see. So, it meant that you can have a big diag of difference in the middle of a plain wall, it would mean that any new objects would have to be seen wireframe for you to understand how to walljump on it etc. Other issues where on it as well, that I don't want to spent time on it. It was just obvious we had to improve some stuff on it. Now, if you understand what means to go forward, and not backward, like you ended up your post.. you understand that it is better to try to find a way to make the current walljump better, instead of going backward. I am doing the same with both topics and I don't think you are right to think I am doing the opposite. Please confirm.

See this post - http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic. ... 50#p141981

Random crack/nudges on surfaces (This has existed for ages tho)
Another thing to note is the following: You don't want randomness in your game, yet you have what appears to be flat and smooth walls with nudges and cracks in them? These small nudges and cracks interfere with both walljumps and bounce rockets and make them "random".

If you want to have what appears to be smooth surfaces in the game, then make them smooth so they don't mess with these two factors

(Or as you do now, fix the underlying issue that walljumps (and bounce rockets) are affected by these things, which is probably far easir, or better for that matter, than fixing the actual surfaces themselves)

And I understand what you mean by "going forward" but the problem with the new walljumps is that it feels like a step backward because they are heavily limited compared to the Beta 2 walljumps. If you however plan to improve the current system and bring it back to near Beta 2 levels, but without them being affected by the underlying geometry of surfaces etc, then I agree etc, that is taking 1 step backward and 3 forward, which is good

But I guess we agree for the most part, if you plan to keep improving the walljumpsystem from Beta 3. My big fear was that you would keep Beta 3 walljumps like they were because players said it was so much better. Anyway, let's agree that Beta 3 walljumps are atm worse than Beta 2, but can still be improved and worked on?

(Ok I swear, this is the last post about this topic in this thread ^^)

PS! I've had some graphic issues on maps lately, more specifically Paladin. Sometimes map is fine, other times it's not, but restarting game and enabling 'disable scan cache' (or what it was) fixed the issue for me. It could be just that the restart itself fixed the issue, that I don't know.

[Hylis]

eta 3 walljumps are atm worse than Beta 2, but can still be improved and worked on?

I can agree easily that you preferred the ones before, that they were more funny or highly skilled with randomness, but not that beta 3 walljumps are worse. They are more solid and have some qualities that are more important than the beta 2 ones. The beta 2 walljump would have ask to high walls to prevent some moves capable with beta 2 walljump. Even in frontal jump it was possible to succeed to go over. It was quite ugly and would have brought high walls everywhere. Anyway, I know why we did the modifications, and I am quite sure we were right to do them.

We made a lot of really fun and skilled stuff for years, but to make something solid sometimes requires to take additional parameters into account. It is like the spam of strafe left and right, it was more fun, more skilled, but flawed because of the dependency of the ping and the randomness it introduced. That's my job to look after many things and I will always agree when a player says he liked more something before or now. His taste is his part, to take all into account is mine.

[utzutz]

because they had big flaw, such as being dependant on the underlying geometry and the way objects were modelized without the user being capable to see.

Most of us were already aware of the fact, that some spots give a higher boost due to that irregularities or small edges in a wall, but that's not how it should be, so true.

Suggestion:
What's with making specific structures/walls, which are visually marked and where you adhere more to as a player, thus allowing specific movements on certain walls in the game, but evident for every player not just those who play this competitvely. Something like the boost fields from wiepout or mariokart , but on the wall effecting just the walljump behaviour.

This is based upon those who suggest a wall, which is not walljumpable, such as a metal plate or something, but just the other way around. A wall we're you stick to a bit more, or with a kind of force field, or which gives a small jump boost.

Even though I liked the possibility to over-power your enemy just via out-smarting em with fast movement and unpredictable ways as you're basically allowed to do whatever you're judo enables you to do.

Many players found walljumps to be "random" and hard to learn. And they should be hard to learn and master, it is part of a tricky movement-system that should require some time to learn.

Yip, it's not easy to master the judo

It's easier to predict the paths at the moment, hence there's even less differentiation between a pro and a casual, which is what made cstrike so big. You can see those pros can do stuff you can't, but it seems learnable. However, those things took some time to be unveiled, so we do not know what is achievable with the new wall-jumping methods yet. It's different ^^ and it may evolve !

still no SSAA, i really want try the game but not without antialiasing
so i will wait or don't play it if it will never implemented

Dud, graphical details are always the last mile stones in development.

[Hylis]

Keep in mind that one day, you will have tons of different geometries, maybe, thanks to object importer. So, better to depend on what you see, not what you know from the invisible.

In fact, the more stable are the jumps, the more extreme can be the routes. It is more a combination of them that would make the action more difficult. It will be even more spectacular for the spectator. Now, it will be to mappers to suggest this type of routes in their maps and maybe the number would be too low because of the simplicity of the wall jump. I intended to make "progressive" wall jump, for some time, by the way