[SUGGESTION] Mappacks, map evolution & map-tool.

[novationx]

MAP POOL SUGGESTIONS FOR THE FUTURE AND NOW

Questions I have about the current mappack & its selection?
Why should we keep playing maps if they are never played? Why arent we editting maps so they become more enjoyable to play with every iteration/modification? Why arent we removing the least-played map every 1-2 month(s)? Why are we starting our veto's with the same maps over & over again? ( -rad , -tilt, -colli )
Why do we even have 9maps in the mappack if we only play 6?

Example: IronFist
--> Awesome map, but the tunnels on the right side were never used. I mean never ever.
Does this mean we should remove the map instantly? Of course not, but why not accept an updated version of a map after 1month

It takes 1 admin of a big cup to do this & other cups will surely follow.
Somebody has to be in control & decide. I think bertv & co should do this.

An example of de_dust2 ( CSGO ) and its changes in the last months:
7/1 Fixed some spots where C4 could get stuck.
7/1 Reduced post processing effects.
6/11 Replaced all game-play affecting double doors with the new metal ones.
6/11 Fixed some bad geometry in various places that allowed bullet penetration when it shouldn’t.
3/26 Removed some small gaps between crates in Bombsite B
3/6 Fixed tiny gaps between boxes in Bombsite A
3/6 Fixed killer box in Bombsite B
2/5 Removed dark texture near tunnel stairs.
2/5 Removed sky collision over building near T spawn.
2/5 Covered up shadow that looked like a player near CT spawn.
2/5 Fixed invisible ledges on curved corners.


A TOOL TO HELP THE MAPPOOL ( its a good idea cuz it ryhmes )
I'm coming from CS 1.6 , COD & other games where everything is in the hands/control of the developers. It took me a while to understand that ManiaPlanet is different, but I like it :

We cant ask NADEO to change a map for us, because they made the map-editor; a tool for the community.
So, why dont we ask for some sort of tool to determine which maps are never played or a tool that can show us heatmaps of the official maps? Why dont we ask for a poll in the Elite title itself that asks us to choose our 2 favorite/least favorite maps and have this data publically for everybody ^^
This tool could be more than a simple poll. It could be a central place where people share their feedback about the maps.


Imagine how this would affect the overall quality of the mappack?
Imagine how this could motivate mappers to keep mapping? The community is giving them feedback! The mappers feel appreciated. Imagine how much the mappers would learn about mapping?

This tool should suggest new Elite maps automatically based on excisting karma-systems.
You should be able to give maps karma & awards directly ingame!
Somebody could be a mapper of the month. If your map becomes official you should earn planets...
The possibilities are endless. The Maniaplanet sky is the limit.

It should be implemented in other titles too ( combo, royal, joust, everywhere )
It should only let players vote that actually played 5matches on those maps.
It should let you subscribe you to a map & when a mapper made an update addressing your concerns you could be notified? Oh wait... Steam workshop has that! Lets use that to help


EDIT:
In a way, this is probably what MX is all about. Im not trying to step on their toes... Its just an idea I had & I believe it could actually work. This tool should be part of the game & not dependant of an external website.

PS: We all know the mapper of the month, every month would be the papychamp master, but being 2nd best mapper of the month is still nice.

[ChillyBilli]

Same opinion here, but I would make it more generall:

Implementing the features maniaexchange, carpark, the forum, etc. have would let the activity on these features rise a lot. The way to these sites is just a bit to long. If u have it at fingertip ingame u could just take a watch leave a comment etc. without registration opening the broser or even know the sights. Could be very nice to have that implemented =)

[novationx]

You could even play a match of your favorite gamemode and vote for maps when you're eliminated! Thats how cool it could/should be

[Rowxyy]

We all debated on facebook: Nice idea !

[Wabbitface]

I would deeply suggest we develop MX to be the best it can be, it's almost limitless of what possibilities can be done.
We can't encourage Nadeo to take control either... mostly because the job won't be done well enough as there are higher priorities in other areas.

Mappacks
The problem with the mappack changing 3 times a year is that its always a drastic change, about 100 maps are submitted for each vote, its a massive job and you need a team to narrow it down to a list of 10 maps or so. Soo many maps get missed out as no feedback is given to most of them, only the maps that seem to have highest potential get the chance of becoming official. (and getting feedback)
A good example is my own, I submitted 4 of my newest maps I made for competitive pool, the only time I got feedback from other testers was when the pool was already chosen. That was for only 1 map and from one person 'Bervt'. I was pretty unhappy about this as these four maps are new and pretty much in finished condition despite getting any feedback and what bothered me more is whether other peoples maps had any chance.

The problem lies on the fact that the community is relying on others to come up with the pool when it should be the community suggesting maps and offering feedback themselves. One of the reason maps in the pool seem to be released in a bad state is purely because they have had no time to receive enough feedback and for work to be done.


The Mappacks shouldn't change drastically 3 times a year either, I would suggest every month only 1 of the least-liked maps get voted out and a new one voted in. This means there is one mappack to train, and every month there's a new map to learn. There doesn't need to be any official map testers to remove 'bad' maps from the submissions and the job running this on a monthly basis would be a small one. If there is a good map ranking system on MX, there wouldn't be any need to submit maps as the highest ranked would already get priority, this in turn would get the community involved to rate new and old maps. However this ranking system needs to be dynamic as maps get favoured in the beginning but over time get boring.

Map Evolution
About 300 new maps are made for the mappack every year, we need to encourage more players to give good constructive feedback on new maps, however one of the biggest problems for lets say Elite, is that a good 80% of them are utter shite. Like seriously there are many mappers who just don't understand what basic guidelines to follow when building a competitive elite map and I certainly don't blame them. We need to put some effort to help others to receive the benefits later. Mania Exchange needs some cool better way of getting players to provide good feedback.

A rule on MX is that we cannot edit other peoples maps without their permission first. This I find very unproductive, If people have the ability to take what people have built to make something amazing and give it back to the community then its all for the better especially if they can do the same. If people don't want this then they should either password their map or Nadeo add a system in the editor: 'Can others edit: y/n ?' (Thanks nova ) It's all about innovation, and I think it's really important.

Map Tools
I would suggest that Nadeo to be working on better more cooler-looking blocks for Shootmaina that DO NOT get in the way of freedom of movement 'aka gameplay'. There are soo many blocks in the editor now that make movement suck, your making it easier for players to get around the map without learning how to manage their stamina and get good with movement. Another thing to point out is maps where really good in the old days of Beta 1, there was a limited number of blocks but all of them were good for movement. But now there are so many stupid things that stop you doing a walljump that should be easy to do. AKA THE ANNOYING 2 SIDES OF THE CORNER PILLAR BLOCK. When will things like this in the editor ever get fixed? What about walljumping on metal blocks? why is this not possible? Texture bugs from mixmapping ruining the whole look of a finished map.

When MP3 was coming out I was seriously hoping for more castle-like blocks that don't impede flow but also look fantastically good. Also how about a large castle gate that is functionable for siege? one that when you capture the pole it lifts up the gate and you can go through. I'm sure that idea has had a lot of interest in the forum yet nothings been done yet. Leaving siege a weird looking gamemode now.

[bervt]

Why arent we editting maps so they become more enjoyable to play with every iteration/modification?

Yes that is the case for this mappool , we have made some update for it to improve it . ( but now the MM is not really up to date )

Why should we keep playing maps if they are never played?

until the maps are not fully played we cannot really know , the map to ban ( we will be fixed in 2 weed at the opale arena LAN )

why dont we ask for some sort of tool to determine which maps are never played or a tool that can show us heatmaps of the official maps?

Good idea , but will nadeo make it or someone ?

Why arent we removing the least-played map every 1-2 month(s)?

For stability , i think , but a idea to think about .

The community is giving them feedback!

that is the real problem here , almost nobody give feedback , they say mappool is shit , this map is shit but don't tell why , until we go to them , and this take time ( a lot ) ...

It takes 1 admin of a big cup to do this & other cups will surely follow.
Somebody has to be in control & decide. I think bertv & co should do this.

... and some feedback , it is like grass i hate it , ext... so like you say somebody has to make a decision , like i have done it does not please to all , maybe it is a good or bad one, time will tell us ^^ .

This tool should suggest new Elite maps automatically based on excisting karma-systems.

Karma can be good if everybody play fair . i would say take a look of the map but don't approve it for the karma .

Somebody could be a mapper of the month. If your map becomes official you should earn planets...

This can be done , only if Nadeo look at the mappool , but it is not really the case , even if for me they must officialise it in some way .


for me this mappool is something like a pivot for some change , the first one is the introduction of updating map and mappool (like you want ^^ ), and the next will be the change how to make it .
Not everyone like it , but the choice to not add old map (except swift now ^^ )was to give fresh air to elite (and shootmania ) and to open more possiblility , and for the next mappool add old map if needed but more possiblity where open so maybe see some new stuff and tactics .

Nt : if after the opale arena some map are Ban , we will replace them , maybe some really old map like breach remade or some new map but more classical one .

edit : Wabbitface ,give feedback to all the mapper do you need to sleep ? , i think one way to do the job is to make tutorial ( video one or else ) , so that if someone want really to improve , he can see them , and after talk more about . ( Not ez , try to make one for the use of the editor (done some ) but even with 2h it is hard to cover all ^^ )

[Wabbitface]

edit : Wabbitface ,give feedback to all the mapper do you need to sleep ? , i think one way to do the job is to make tutorial ( video one or else ) , so that if someone want really to improve , he can see them , and after talk more about . ( Not ez , try to make one for the use of the editor (done some ) but even with 2h it is hard to cover all ^^ )

Yeah need some sleep now! I was a bit frustrated because halfway through making the post I accidentally hit the back button on my mouse losing a lot of what I wrote. I'd love to get to making tutorials on youtube, been wanting for a long time but have been stuck with slow internet I kinda avoided it, good news though! I will be getting faster internet soon.

[novationx]

I wanted to keep the 1st post pretty short, but after rereading it I dont think its very clear.

Basically I want an ingame tool that helps with the maps & map selection & map evolution.
The tool could be updated after time, but some simple numbers would already help the community a lot.


The end-goal would be to :
- Give mappers more motivation to map
--> Creating an official map will feel rewarding & will be rewarded
- Give mappers feedback
--> Overall map quality will go UP.

- remove discussion
"WHY DID U REMOVE THIS MAP? EVERYBODY THINKS ITS AWESOME!?!!?"
--> The numbers say ur wrong. End of discussion.
- Speed up map selection

I love MX and i started using it recently. But If it would be ingame it would be 100x more active automatically. Im sorry for MX but its the sad truth.


Im also a little surprized that something like this isnt already in the game. I read somewhere in 2013 that ShootMania already has +20 000 maps... Its all just chaos. I bet 19 500 just arent even played. I even bet some of them would be soooo cool & original but somehow they got lost in this abundance of maps.
A tool is very welcome imo.

[w1lla]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/josijmgmqi4j ... 32ZJD4YW7a

made something quick. its a poll system based on the current maps. The votes you see aren't official it was just made for testing.

For the future it can be extended to give karma/awards towards sites or leagues if neccasary.