Opinion: Hide and Seek is superior to Infection

[UrinStein]

I used to play "Hide and Seek" every now and then back in the day and i was rather surprised to see a clone mode namely the now pretty popular "Infection".

Both modes feature two teams from which the Catchers has to catch the Runners by getting near them, turning them into Catchers as well. They both focus more on movement and maybe coordinated hunts than on actual shooting, even though it has its place in both modes.
In both modes the Catchers have initiative and resposibility of ending the round by catching everyone. If the catchers stand around, the Runners can just chill around as well.

Now what differentiates Infection from H&S is, the Catchers (Zombies in Infection) cannot shoot at all and need to body check the opposing team to catch them, while in H&S the Catchers can shoot and a hit only counts as a catch within a 2m radius. This enables the H&S Catchers to harass the Runners from afar by bumping them, making them fall and disturb their movement.
Also the Infection Zombies can die from Runner's rockets after two hits, while the H&S Catchers can be bumped around but never eliminated.

All in all the Infection Zombies have no offensive power whatsoever, which also denys them any Rocket Movement, and they also can easily die by opponent spam fire. Once you were caught, you become the most useless creature in the world, sucking any fun out of the rest of the round for you.
The only players who can move on the game are unmotivated and powerless.

In H&S the team which can move the game on, was actually the more powerful one, so after being caught (and more or less having lost the round) you do at least get an enhancement on for of the ability to eliminate people, and therefore new motivation and initiative. H&S is more balanced and therefore more fun.


The powerlessness of the Zombies in Infection also just provokes camping by the Runners, which is a lot campier than it was in H&S. Places the Zombies can't get to without rockets, the inability to bump people off OP high grounds like trees or to distract the Runners by spamming in their face or around their feet to bump them around.


Apart from the script there seem to be many problems with the Infection community that i never saw in H&S.
Just take a look at these "Rules for an Infection-Event".

1. As survivor do NOT leave the map. By this I mean running away from the actual map so infecteds can not catch you or use glitches on the map to leave it.
2. As survivor do NOT go to any locations infecteds can not reach (like where you need rockets to get there). Its just not fair and ruins the game for other players. This also includes locations infecteds can not reach while you shoot them. (Like climbing on trees)
3. As most people do not like do NOT use your rocket to bump other players of buildings so they will get infected. (bumping other zombies is allowed :) )

1. This looks like those stupid SSM-Siege rules.
Don't build breakable maps to begin with. In H&S , if a map was breakable, it was for everyone. There was a script side protection system so people couldn't leave the building area, so people couldn't just run off anyway.
2. This is a problem of the gamemode itself. If you realise that you need gentlemen's agreements to make mode playable, why don't you balance the mode? (Oh no sry, you would end up with an already existing one...)
3. It is a competitive mode. All Runners's goal is to be the last man standing. Why is playing AGAINST each other and therefore speeding up the round forbidden? Are the people playing Infection really such pussies that they cannot stand when someone outplays them? Again in H&S this "agreement" didn't need to exist, every Runner-Runner interaction was rather "social-experiment-esque", people chose for themselves if they wanna ally or fight each other.


Last but not least the H&S maps were a lot funnier, rewarding obstacling skills, not overloaded with bumpers. People did some crazy things with the Unlimiter back then, the maps were actual fun to me. The Infection maps I've seen so far were stupid.


I think people are only playing Infection because it's got Zombies in it. Hide and Seek sounds like a kid's game, I know. But people who are not willing to think about the modes they play and just go with what sounds/looks "cool", maybe kid's games are suitable for them anyway.

I tried to keep this short post, but meh, I wanted it to be clear as well. I'm not sure if I managed any of those two.

[plopp]

Apart from the no bump rule and the camping (which is a mapping problem), I do enjoy killing my enemies. It makes it so that even if you're hunted by 5 'zombies' you can still survive. This makes it so you don't have to hide in order to collect points and win.

[mewin]

Hey UrinStein,

I am sorry to hear you do not like my mode, but there are some things to make clear here.

Infection is not a clone of Hide and Seek (I dont know how long people have been playing Hide and Seek, but Infection has been around for about a year now). Infection in fact is inspired by the Infection game mode of other games (especially Teeworlds and Call of Duty).
I know it is hard to adapt all the features of these games into ShootMania, but I did my best and if you have any idea on how to make it better you are free to tell me .
There are obviously some similarities in Infection and Hide and Seek, but these are still different modes and I am not sure how you can call any of them "superior".
Although it is maybe hard for the infecteds some time many players still return to play and most of them still have fun (what basically is the goal of the mode).

Apart from the script there seem to be many problems with the Infection community that i never saw in H&S.

I dont think this is a problem with the community, but rather a problem with the mode itself (which I did not see when creating it) which unfortunately make these rules necessary.

Don't build breakable maps to begin with.

The great thing about ShootMania is the possibilty for anyone to create own content and I want to give anyone the possibility to do so (which also creates a large variety of maps to increase the fun for players). Unfortunately it is not always easy to build unbreakable maps and due to the fact how the mode works this often is not possible for the infected players to use these glitches too. Detecting these maps is not easy and so many are broken by players on the server. For that reason we need the rules to make the game not impossible for the infecteds. Maps which are known to be breakable though are still removed from the server until the problem is fixed.

Last but not least the H&S maps were a lot funnier, rewarding obstacling skills, not overloaded with bumpers.

It was never my goal to make obstacling skills useful, its just a part of ShootMania.

I think people are only playing Infection because it's got Zombies in it.

"Zombie" is never mentioned in the mode, its just "Survivors" and "Infecteds" .

All in all I like to hear some feedback, but I dont think its fair to call Hide ans Seek "superior" just because you like it more. If you can give me any advice on how to make the mode better (without changing it to Hide and Seek) tell me and I will do my best to do so.

mewin

[TheBigMiike]

Also the Infection Zombies can die from Runner's rockets after two hits, while the H&S Catchers can be bumped around but never eliminated.

Nope, They can only die from runner's rockets if this setting is enabled but the majority of the time, this setting is disabled.

EDIT : I misread the post. You are right.

I used to play "Hide and Seek" every now and then back in the day and i was rather surprised to see a clone mode namely the now pretty popular "Infection".

A clone ?
Are you saying that Mewin has copied your gamemode ?
Isn't Hide & Seek a gamemode copied of others games ?

All i see in your post is that you are trying to denigrate Infection. I really feel that you're jealous of the Infection gamemode. Is it the case ?

If you want to prove that the Hide and Seek gamemode is better than the Infection gamemode so prove it by creating an event because when i see a thread with the title "Hide and Seek is superior to Infection", I just don't want to play Hide & Seek because of the bad behavior of the creator of this thread.

EDIT : Didn't see the post of Mewin

[plopp]

Nope, They can only die from runner's rockets if this setting is enabled but the majority of the time, this setting is disabled.

Really? I have played infection a lot and this has never been disabled when I played.

[UrinStein]

Thank you for your replies.

They can only die from runner's rockets if this setting is enabled but the majority of the time, this setting is disabled.

Since the gamemode is not made public, it makes more sense to me to talk about what is being played, than what can be played, as there is no possibility for me to open a server myself with my preferred Script Settings. The truth is, it's played with damage on.

Are you saying that Mewin has copied your gamemode ?
Isn't Hide & Seek a gamemode copied of others games ?

All i see in your post is that you are trying to denigrate Infection. I really feel that you're jealous of the Infection gamemode. Is it the case :roll: ?

H&S is not my gamemode. I am not jealous. I've just been on the Infection server a few times thinking: "Why should I play this, when I could play H&S instead?"

Also (@ Mewin), when I say clone I don't mean it's 'stolen'. It is just basicall the same mode.
Siege and Heroes are Elite clones for me. Same game objective.
Speedball is a CTF clone. But i think Speedball is far superior to CTF (in SM).

HIde and Seek is about 2 years old now btw.

There are obviously some similarities in Infection and Hide and Seek, but these are still different modes and I am not sure how you can call any of them "superior".
Although it is maybe hard for the infecteds some time many players still return to play and most of them still have fun (what basically is the goal of the mode).

I think that the mode, that does not mean those "gentleman agreements" to be playable is superior.
Also H&S mode manages to make the Catching part just as engaging as the Running Away part.
While Running Away is more fun in your mode, as plopp said, Catching is something between unrewarding and impossible.

Those are my two main points in short.
At least the first one of them, seems pretty undisputable to me.

I dont think this is a problem with the community, but rather a problem with the mode itself (which I did not see when creating it) which unfortunately make these rules necessary.
[...]
Maps which are known to be breakable though are still removed from the server until the problem is fixed.

I have heard multiple times that Infection maps are breakable and one is not "allowed" to break them on the server. It reminds me of the SSM Siege servers where people have been banned because of it.
The question in my head is: If people go so far to ban people for brekaing maps, why no go so far to ban brekable maps instead?

I don't know exactly how you guys handle map breakers on your server Mewin, but it's a community problem for me if the map breakers are blamed instead of the mappers making brekable maps. i know that it's hard sometimes with breaks, but I fix maps all the time, even maps by people who have been inactive a long time, who's maps we'd like to still play.
I've been angered by map breaking often enough, but at least for proper matches and events we in Speedball just make sure the maps aren't breakable, and if they are, it's not the players fault but the organisers...

It was never my goal to make obstacling skills useful, its just a part of ShootMania.

Okay, many people don't seem to agree with me on this, but take away the movement and replace it by jumppads and you end up with a really really bad FPS. The movement and the obstacle tricks you can do with it make the game for me.
Let's say, any community that manages to incorporate more features of the game into their mode and maps is superior in my eyes.


There has been a thread somewhere about Elite being not that good of a mode and being overhyped. Some people agreed, some didn't. No one was accused of... jealousy.
No, if a thread like this happens, please just assume, that the thread author really tried to make a valid point.
I had to take a lot of courage to make this post, but i did so, because I felt like people are spending time with a mode, that is not quite as good as another one based on the same principle.

[TheBigMiike]

Nope, They can only die from runner's rockets if this setting is enabled but the majority of the time, this setting is disabled.

Really? I have played infection a lot and this has never been disabled when I played.

Sorry i'm wrong, i misread the post of Urinstein, you are right
I played just one time Hide & Seek, create a little event to make H&S more popular can be a great idea

[xNero]

I had to take a lot of courage to make this post, but i did so, because I felt like people are spending time with a mode, that is not quite as good as another one based on the same principle.

So why you don't let the people play whatever they want? They can choose what they like more.
I think the "Infection" Community is nice, and we have a lot of players which are nearly every day at the infection server
We nearly never bann.

Greetings

[UrinStein]

Apart from the no bump rule and the camping (which is a mapping problem), I do enjoy killing my enemies. It makes it so that even if you're hunted by 5 'zombies' you can still survive. This makes it so you don't have to hide in order to collect points and win.

I needed a bit to get my mind around this.

Would you say Infection is more about shooting peons than running away?
And how much fun is it to be infected (thx for the clarification Mewin) then?

To me it seems to be the worst situation to be in when you are infected. No Weapon, no means to defend AND no chance to get a lot of points anymore.
You get 2 points per Infection, so with 30 people on the server you can get up to 60 points by infecting.

As a survivor though you can get infinitely many points by camping and killing (you can even make longshot spams and get lucky).
So if every infected dies... let's say 5 times, there are 300 points to get by elimination plus 455 points by surviving.

Once you are infected not only fun is over, but also the winning of points. There is not even a reason to play to the end of the round, by running into survivors you just give them more points. You are nothing but a peon.

In H&S you would get 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 points for every catch and the runners would only get points for surviving. There were actually people who got big amounts of points by catching only, because of the linear nature of the catch points.

Edit:

So why you don't let the people play whatever they want? :D They can choose what they like more.

When I saw hose "rules" for that event I pretty much felt offended. Why would people have to put up with such stupid rules, when those problem could so easily be fixed? If a gamemode by Nadeo is bad, I'm sure to tell them too.

And if that's actually what they want, why are people okay with that, that gamemodes are barely playable?

[plopp]

I have heard multiple times that Infection maps are breakable and one is not "allowed" to break them on the server. It reminds me of the SSM Siege servers where people have been banned because of it.
The question in my head is: If people go so far to ban people for brekaing maps, why no go so far to ban brekable maps instead?

You're right that maps shouldn't be breakable in the first place. There has just not been a good way to make maps unbreakable before without making them look ugly. Now when someone figured out how to make invisible blocks it should be easier to make the maps both pretty and unbreakable.

Would you say Infection is more about shooting peons than running away?
And how much fun is it to be infected (thx for the clarification Mewin) then?

It all depends on the maps. Unfortunately most maps around have really good camp spots or are just too open for infected to do anything. The fault is in the maps and not in the mode imo.