TM² Stadium confirmed for ESWC 2014

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Edster
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Re: TM² Stadium confirmed for ESWC 2014

Post by Edster »

Omnixor wrote:I mean, ESWC is the only huge 1v1 tournament, and unless another one appears, your boycott won't do much (I guess).
Think about it though; fB has started his own event (fB's weekly race) which whilst not a 1 v 1 event has been pretty successful, regularly getting over 100 players starting the race. It is also much more representative of the community as a whole. (Because the maps tend to be a combination of a lot of the different map styles, tech, dirt, fullspeed, RPG, etc.) My view is that in the future it will be events organised by passionate individuals, not shadowy manipulative corporations like ESWC, that matter and people will want to participate in, regardless of whether they are 'pro' or not.

Sure, he is not going to be able to 'take down' ESWC or anything like that, but he can at least undermine it and act as a cautionary tale for those TM players who think that "It won't happen to me".
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Re: TM² Stadium confirmed for ESWC 2014

Post by TheM »

Edster wrote:
Omnixor wrote:I mean, ESWC is the only huge 1v1 tournament, and unless another one appears, your boycott won't do much (I guess).
Think about it though; fB has started his own event (fB's weekly race) which whilst not a 1 v 1 event has been pretty successful, regularly getting over 100 players starting the race. It is also much more representative of the community as a whole. (Because the maps tend to be a combination of a lot of the different map styles, tech, dirt, fullspeed, RPG, etc.) My view is that in the future it will be events organised by passionate individuals, not shadowy manipulative corporations like ESWC, that matter and people will want to participate in, regardless of whether they are 'pro' or not.

Sure, he is not going to be able to 'take down' ESWC or anything like that, but he can at least undermine it and act as a cautionary tale for those TM players who think that "It won't happen to me".
I don't want to sound like I'm siding with ESWC here, but comparing fB's Weekly Race with ESWC is a pretty weird comparision. fB's Weekly Race, though having lots of active participants, in my eyes cannot be compared to a "high ranked" eSports tournament like the ESWC or (in TM terms) ESL CPS, ET's STC/NC, etc.

Eventhough what happened to FrostBeule is certainly not "nice" (to say the least) of ESWC, this game needs tournaments like ESWC to stay alive in the eSports-scene. Apart from this event (and Gamers Assembly), Nadeo/Ubisoft don't seem to support other eSports tournaments. At least, that's the impression I'm getting.
Of course, "we" should be happy with each tournament they help supporting, but I feel that compared to some years ago (yes, the "Nations-times" - when it wasn't that strong either), eSports is on the downhill for TrackMania, while there isn't a big eSports racing title, which should be seen as big opportunity by Nadeo/Ubisoft.
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Re: TM² Stadium confirmed for ESWC 2014

Post by Edster »

TheM wrote: I don't want to sound like I'm siding with ESWC here, but comparing fB's Weekly Race with ESWC is a pretty weird comparision. fB's Weekly Race, though having lots of active participants, in my eyes cannot be compared to a "high ranked" eSports tournament like the ESWC or (in TM terms) ESL CPS, ET's STC/NC, etc.
The people that regularly finish towards the top of the results of the weekly race are actually in my view just as good as those that have managed to win ESWC. If you watch the races you'll see that it's guys like Omnipotz, Shorty, Racehans, Sand, Marius89, etc. who are fighting for the wins up front. Yeah, maybe they might not win at ESWC, but these guys are no slouches either, and the Weekly Race is a different kind of challenge, one that plays to their strengths and that they deserve to be rewarded by, perhaps not in monetary terms like ESWC (should) have given out, but by receiving the accolade of being the winner after racing for an hour on a map they'd never seen before against over 100 other drivers. If you don't think the Weekly Race has any impact on the Esports community, then I would use the example of Racehans, who won almost a dozen Weekly races in the space of just a few months, and was able to use it as a springboard to trial membership with Team Acer.

I think it's unfair to write off events like the Weekly race as "unimportant" when compared to ESWC, simply because these "bigger" events have been around longer. I also get the feeling (And perhaps I'm just a bit misinformed here) that ESWC's Trackmania events are kind of elitist compared to the Weekly Race; for example, I live in the UK, and while France may be only a small ocean away, Trackmania isn't well known on the northern side of the channel tunnel at all, and therefore even if I was talented enough (And I'm saying this hypothetically because in reality I'm nowhere near that level) there would be absolutely no way I would be allowed or able to compete in something like ESWC as there's no qualifiers or support for Trackmania here, unlike in the rest of Europe. And unless you've competed successfully in it before you're not going to get any special invites to circumvent this. However, if I want to compete in the Weekly Race, I can just rock up on the server without even needing to sign up.

This probably won't be a popular opinion, but I think that the old "1 v 1 on a relatively short point A to Point B map" format, whilst enjoyable, doesn't suit players like myself who are more endurance/laps drivers. It's not a bad format by any means, but for me personally it's too luck based; (And keep in mind I only say this as someone who competed in ESL CPS for the first time a few months ago) if you make a mistake across a short sprint, then that's it: game over basically for that round and you often can't recover. Also you get so many rounds one after the other that from my point of view it can sometimes become a bit redundant; especially if it's really one-sided I can occasionally find myself thinking: "Why do I have to do this same race 20-40 times, when we already know what the result will be?" (But like I said, maybe that's just me :? )

Finally, it's interesting to note that increasingly we are seeing tournaments popping up like DDE's 24 hour road or in particular TMT's multilap tournament which I think shows an increased demand for endurance events in the community; it is not just about the 1v1 tech tournaments anymore; it is also about the RPG nightcups, the NASCAR knockout cups, and the F1-style events, to name just a few, and that's how it should be; it's not a straightforward ladder where all roads lead to ESWC, it's a tree from which many branches sprout. (Indeed, many of these branches haven't even heard of each other, so I guess it's sort of like a family tree in that sense... :mrgreen: )

Anyway, sorry for my lengthy ramblings, that's just my 2 cents on the whole thing. ;)
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Re: TM² Stadium confirmed for ESWC 2014

Post by maxi031 »

I am with fb here,he has every right to do what he is doing, they did screw him over big time. If they was serious organization at all they would not let this happen in the first place.

This game could use some events like ESWC, but if they are lying and deceiving players, than those events are going to harm game even more.

Also fb has good streaming channel, news videos, and is hosting events weekly himself. :thumbsup:
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Re: TM² Stadium confirmed for ESWC 2014

Post by TheM »

Edster wrote:If you don't think the Weekly Race has any impact on the Esports community, then I would use the example of Racehans, who won almost a dozen Weekly races in the space of just a few months, and was able to use it as a springboard to trial membership with Team Acer.
I think you should read better what I've written, in which I say that the Weekly race is not as important as ESWC.
Edster wrote:I think it's unfair to write off events like the Weekly race as "unimportant" when compared to ESWC, simply because these "bigger" events have been around longer.
Again, I didn't say that the event on itself is unimportant, it is important in this community. I'm just saying that it is not as important as ESWC.
Edster wrote:I also get the feeling (And perhaps I'm just a bit misinformed here) that ESWC's Trackmania events are kind of elitist compared to the Weekly Race; for example, I live in the UK, and while France may be only a small ocean away, Trackmania isn't well known on the northern side of the channel tunnel at all, and therefore even if I was talented enough (And I'm saying this hypothetically because in reality I'm nowhere near that level) there would be absolutely no way I would be allowed or able to compete in something like ESWC as there's no qualifiers or support for Trackmania here, unlike in the rest of Europe.
When you would have looked at last years qualifiers, you would've found out that several areas in Europe are not covered by qualifiers.
Edster wrote:This probably won't be a popular opinion, but I think that the old "1 v 1 on a relatively short point A to Point B map" format, whilst enjoyable, doesn't suit players like myself who are more endurance/laps drivers. It's not a bad format by any means, but for me personally it's too luck based; (And keep in mind I only say this as someone who competed in ESL CPS for the first time a few months ago) if you make a mistake across a short sprint, then that's it: game over basically for that round and you often can't recover. Also you get so many rounds one after the other that from my point of view it can sometimes become a bit redundant; especially if it's really one-sided I can occasionally find myself thinking: "Why do I have to do this same race 20-40 times, when we already know what the result will be?" (But like I said, maybe that's just me :? )
I guess that's your opinion. I feel that it's not luck based. Players who have been training the maps, searching for the perfect line across the map know where they can go. It's up to you to decide what risks you take to get to the finish as quickly as possible.
Edster wrote:Finally, it's interesting to note that increasingly we are seeing tournaments popping up like DDE's 24 hour road or in particular TMT's multilap tournament which I think shows an increased demand for endurance events in the community; it is not just about the 1v1 tech tournaments anymore; it is also about the RPG nightcups, the NASCAR knockout cups, and the F1-style events, to name just a few, and that's how it should be; it's not a straightforward ladder where all roads lead to ESWC, it's a tree from which many branches sprout. (Indeed, many of these branches haven't even heard of each other, so I guess it's sort of like a family tree in that sense... :mrgreen: )
It is indeed nice to see how competitions in TrackMania spread across many disiplines with many sorts of competitions. Though I'm not organizing those races myself, several fellow ESL admins are active in those RPG nightcups, the NASCAR Knockout cups and we'll be organizing an F1-style event on Canyon soon.
1vs1 Tech has been the style for big tournaments for ages, and personally I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Edster wrote:Anyway, sorry for my lengthy ramblings, that's just my 2 cents on the whole thing. ;)
No problem, eventhough we might not agree on various points, I'm very interested in what you have to say on this matter.
maxi031 wrote:I am with fb here,he has every right to do what he is doing, they did screw him over big time. If they was serious organization at all they would not let this happen in the first place.

This game could use some events like ESWC, but if they are lying and deceiving players, than those events are going to harm game even more.

Also fb has good streaming channel, news videos, and is hosting events weekly himself. :thumbsup:
It's indeed not right from the organisation to not keep their promise to FrostBeule to pay out the prizes from his win some years ago. Legally, sadly they don't need to pay the money, since it's a "new" company which took over the brand after the previous organizer went bankrupt.

I hope they'll pay up, but I suppose it won't happen. It looks like other winners have been paid after that (as far as I remember I've seen Spam posting a bankreceipt).

By the way, I don't want to end up in a lengthy discussion about what ESWC has done wrong and how FB is in his right, etc. I'm just posting how I feel about this subject and I hope you'll respect that too.

I think FB is a fantastic guy, doing very hard work for the community with his streams, newsvideo's, weekly race and probably even more.
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Re: TM² Stadium confirmed for ESWC 2014

Post by Edster »

TheM wrote:I think you should read better what I've written, in which I say that the Weekly race is not as important as ESWC.
Ah, sorry I got the wrong end of the stick there.

TheM wrote:When you would have looked at last years qualifiers, you would've found out that several areas in Europe are not covered by qualifiers.
Well, that kind of supports my view that ESWC is exclusive rather than inclusive.
TheM wrote:we'll be organizing an F1-style event on Canyon soon.
Hmm...The Canyon car is probably a bit too powerslide-dependent for an F1 style event...Nethertheless I might consider buying Canyon in order to see what it's about.
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Re: TM² Stadium confirmed for ESWC 2014

Post by Wormii »

You can compared any 1v1 event going on at the moment to ESWC. It is the championship of TM, driven on LAN, which is full different thing to online tournaments. Frost is right in boycotting the event, since the previous organization running it failed it badly, and neither new one cares about old prizes, but I think no one can deny it being the main offline event and therefore the biggest tournament of TM. It lacks of some of the best players for a reason each year (like fB, KarjeN, Sand etc) but they miss it because they want to, like last year's silver medalist TaLa will do this year.
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