My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

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kalstrams
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by kalstrams » 15 Jul 2012, 15:48

Agreed.

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Firerizer
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by Firerizer » 15 Jul 2012, 21:06

Pschoolofold wrote:Shootmania, for what I can tell, has been promoting this 'oldschool shooter' vibe. I'm a vet in games like quake, ut, tribes, etc, clanned in them for many moons on several levels -- so this vibe naturally got my attention.

Let me sum up my first experience, then I'll give specific details: Way too much glitzy garbage, way too little streamlined performance.

No matter what anyone says, no matter how many trolls come in to pounce, no matter which developer's feelings get hurt, I'm telling you guys straight that oldschoolers don't appreciate or want glitz, cutesy bells and whistles, excessive navigation, or poor performance. We care only for pure twitch performance and the best way we can create and hone our skills in a new game with little hassle along the way.

Now onto some specifics:

The very first thing I noticed was the horrible UI. It's the first thing presented to a new player - you need to get it right and streamlined. Nothing seemed to 'fit', way too much going on. Many of the options seemed either to not work or not work as expected, and several were mysterious with no explanation. Once I figured out where stuff was at, almost none of it made sense in the way we're used to seeing. I won't go into details, I don't have the time to dissect it all. Suffice to say the UI is very poor - glitzy, way too many menu/submenu/etc. We don't need it, make it simple and effective, ditch the cascading menu popups and go with something simple, use as few screens as possible and have a hover info on anything that may not seem obvious.

Once I got into my first game, the play was subpar to horrible (I joined several games, all same results). Ping wasn't too bad (or good) at 100, but you have serious issues with either the network code or the server. I understand with a game like this you are at the mercy of the server for much of the 'response', but without any way to tweak or dissect the network code (ini or console) we have no idea where the poor performance comes from. You may have a few "official" servers, but they were not obvious and I didn't' feel like scrolling through masses of options in a bad ui.

Framerates were average, character movement and anticipation was not smooth, and both affected the gameplay and enjoyment tremendously. If I cannot tell if I am going to hit someone when I shoot, something is not working properly. Again if you can eliminate the most obvious issues, we can figure out what needs done. Make a true 'bare minimum' for graphics, a way to tweak those 'network connection' choices, and you'll have people knowing what the issues are instead of guessing about them.

I won't go on, I don't want to play the game. There is a nice game lurking there, but its up to you guys to listen to the few voices who actually know what makes the game fit the audience. We have too many options these days, and if you don't get the beta right, you lose. You cant use 'beta' as an excuse - these days a beta has to have higher standards since they are no longer the coveted "I GOT IN" of the past, they are now "Pay and you get access". So when you throw open the gates, you better be prepared to at least make people want to play further or you already lost.

This is going to be my only post until I play again. I won't clarify anything to those who have little comprehension or experience in the industry, more specifically those who can't comprehend or appreciate what I've written. I've made it clear where the issues right now lie, and I've been constructive by giving you not only the problems, but also the solutions.

I do hope you heed them, I'd like to see this type of game succeed.
I appreciate your comments...
Like yourself, I have a long history in gaming.
My question and concerns at this time is it worth the money at this time?
I am very interested in the inital presentation of the preview.
However, I am hesititant to buy into this project, though, it does show alot of potential.
How has the server access been in the USA, particularly, The western areas? (If possible.)
I am tittering between a 3 pack or the single.
Thanks.

kalstrams
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by kalstrams » 15 Jul 2012, 21:20

From what i know, USA suffers ping-wise.

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slugish
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by slugish » 16 Jul 2012, 13:13

I played Unreal Tournament 2004 "semi-competitively" for about two years. By that, I mean that I was one of the less skilled players on one of the better teams in the U.S. So I suppose I could say that I was well above average, but certainly not world class. Through the years, I have played many MANY FPS's recreationaly as well: UT99, UT3, Duke Nukem 3D (1v1 over dial up... fun fun), multiple iterations of Quake, etc etc. I have tried games such as Half-Life, CS, Black Ops, etc, but found little enjoyment with them. Understand that the following is based on my experience with those games.

Movement
The movement system has a somewhat unique twist with the binding of the jump/sprint actions to the same key. This was at first quite frustrating, but I grew to enjoy it somewhat as I became accustomed. This method of navigating around maps, I must admit, is pretty cool. Unfortunately, this type of movement is basically useless in combat as it cannot be used without jumping, thus making yourself an easy target. This becomes more obvious when playing with skilled players in a Royale server, as they simply strafe around one another at the very end of the round and do not jump at all. I believe the game could benefit from some added depth in the movement category for use in fighting close range. A simple dodge would be the most obvious, but it would not be the only option. I would love to see double jumps, dodge jumps, wall jumps, etc, but I don't expect those as things would begin to simply be a copy of UT2k4 at that point.

Weapons
I am crossing my fingers that this will change dramatically before the conclusion of beta. The concept of weapon choice based on zone (while kind of a neat idea) simply seems like a cop out to avoid programming weapon switches. I am primarily a hitscan player (instant hit weapons such as lighting gun, shock rifle, sniper rifle, etc.) but almost never have the opportunity to use those skills in this game. Using the railgun requires one to "camp." I much prefer the run-and-gun approach, but that is really only available in Elite. I could go on about this for awhile, but I think this should be obvious to most people. More weapons and the ability to use them in area is very much needed.

Though the railgun should certainly not be rapid fire, the delay between shots could stand to be shortened by ~10% or so.

Health/Powerups
The armor system is somewhat unique, and I believe it suits certain gametypes very well. I hope that something more similar to health and armor meters become available for teamdeathmatch, melee, 1v1 type gametypes as well. While the platform based healing is a neat idea, I also think it is less than ideal for some gametypes. It isn't horrible, but I believe it could use some supplementation.

I hope that someone in the community comes out with mods for 1v1, 2v2, 4v4 type gametypes. With that being said, basic 1v1/TDM strategy in many games revolves around controlling certain areas in the map, along with controlling weapons and powerups. Though these items may not belong in all gametypes, it would be very nice to have them available for additional gametypes created by the community.

UI
I really like the "concept" of the UI. Unfortunately, that is where the positives end. Menu items do not appear where you would expect them to appear, and some things are simply not available. Suggesions that I can think of right off hand:
  • Add ability to view server browser while in a server
  • Show ping on scoreboard, not with a separate command.
  • Add ability to leave scoreboard up, not just while a button is depressed
  • Your own score should always be visible
  • Death messages should include the weapon used
  • Server name/ip should appear on the scoreboard
  • In general, more things should be accessible without leaving a match.
  • Attempting to join a full server kicks you back a couple of menus... annoying.
  • Probably others, but I'm tired.
Maps
Like most other competitive games, many of the best maps will likely come from the community. This is both welcomed and expected.(at least by me) Unfortunately, the editor has some serious limitations currently. While it is possible to create indoor environments, it is not really possible to create any that are functional on their own without outdoor environments as well. I really do appreciate that most players would be able to create a functional map in only a few minutes with little to no previous mapping experience, but there is a lot left to be desired for the more serious mappers. There are currently too many things that simply cannot be created. This is beta, and I understand that. I am hoping that this is one of the things that is still being worked on.

Miscellaneous
  • ability to set ALL enemies/Teammates/Opposing Team to the same color
  • Ping reported in the server browser is often 2-5 times that which is reported after joining. This makes choosing a good server very difficult.
  • PLEASE get rid of the horns! A few rather annoying players have ruined this.
  • Team balancing sometimes occurs within the last 2 minutes or less of a match, this can be very annoying.
  • I see no reason (as a player) that Elite (and others) should be a separate game. It would be nice to be able to access these gametypes without exiting the game. Also, setting not carrying from one to the other is pretty annoying as well.
Community
So far, I have really enjoyed conversing with most people playing the game. The general community seems much more mature (in attitude) than that of some other games I have played. Kudos to you all!


General Comments
Most of the things I have said here have been negative, but I must admit that I AM enjoying this game. I believe it has a long way to go, and believe that many of the changes needed will probably be handled by the community, but I see great potential. I have been looking for a competitive game since UT 2004 lost popularity, and this is the first that I have played that fits into the style that I enjoy.

Edit:
Performance
There is a lot of optimization to be completed here. I am running a 6 core AMD system with two GTX 460's running in SLI. My framerates vary from 40-70fps regardless of settings. I have found that minimum graphics setting does not increase my framerate, and maxing everything and disabling my 2nd GPU does not slow things down. There is a LOT of work to be done here. From what I am reading on these forums, others are having similar issues. While the game is certainly playable, I would enjoy a solid 80fps+ and believe I should be able to accomplish that with my system.

kalstrams
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by kalstrams » 16 Jul 2012, 13:23

+1, nice and lengthy post that presents itself very well.

I agree to anyone, except the Elite being not separate. It should be separate, for the purity of rankings, game modes. And for employing the nicely looking ManiaPlanet 2.0 interface.

But I agree on setting synchronisation - I think there should be an option whether to sync them or not.

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AlexKF
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by AlexKF » 16 Jul 2012, 13:26

I agree with you Pschoolfold.

I also would have to criticised on the UI, even if Hylis did inaccurately reply http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11677

Pschoolofold
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by Pschoolofold » 18 Aug 2012, 05:15

I would like to add a fact that has become ridiculously obvious and annoying.

Nadeo / Ubisoft is trying to make it out like shootmania is "SOOO PRO" in every single PR news announcement stunt -- honesty works much better. Seriously, if you guys would listen to what the few people who play it are telling you, and actually end up making it pro worthy then by all means bandstand all you want.

But right now you have a barely visible player base, a sub par gameplay experience (only recently having the network code almost workable) in a game that has the worst ui of any fps I've seen in the last 15 years.

You guys are losing respect. No amount of the "pro" news onslaught is going to make people want to play. The opposite in fact for the few pros who might play.

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TMarc
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by TMarc » 19 Aug 2012, 11:12

again a nonsense complaint. :roll:

At the moment its beta phase, the game isn't release yet. So there is no respect to lose, only to win here.
And there are a lot of players who give constructive feedback in the beta forum.

What about you?
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Pschoolofold
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by Pschoolofold » 19 Aug 2012, 15:08

It's comments like yours that makes me realize you guys have no clue. Game is doomed.

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TMarc
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Re: My playsession constructive critisism - heed it or fail.

Post by TMarc » 19 Aug 2012, 16:19

And you don't see that you have condammed it in advance without giving it a real chance :roll:

Nadeo never claimed it would be a "perfect" FPS, and what is "perfect" after all.
If you are looking for something like a CS or Quake or Doom clone, you are totally wrong, because SM is a totally different style of game. Try it and then tell what you think. But only from some ads, screenshots and ingame videos you can't really judge.

It was the same with TrackMania: many people complain about missing realism etc., but it has created its own style.
Love it or hate it.

I am not against people who have complaints, issues etc. but who also have constructive things to say, and who are willing to give directions on how to improve the game.

If you really hate it, and are not even ready to help to improve it, then please go away, this is very simple. :mrgreen:
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