Macros, macros everywhere.

Discuss everything related to Shootmania.

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Forgot10
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by Forgot10 » 20 Jul 2013, 23:15

Now that I can do the MJ, I think it's not a question of hardware, but a question of learning how to do it. Yes, it's probably a bit harder on cheaper mice, but still possible. Not talking about keyboards, because for some reason I used rmb for jumping from the very start (which I never did in FPS games before).

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dreammyw0w
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by dreammyw0w » 20 Jul 2013, 23:38

a man of ur word forgot10 :D! I like that!

I think im gonna start a petition or something if NADEO keeps refusing :p

caspa
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by caspa » 22 Jul 2013, 20:54

Well, looks like my efforts have once again been ignored. What does it take to get your attention Hylis?

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dreammyw0w
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by dreammyw0w » 22 Jul 2013, 23:53

caspa wrote:Well, looks like my efforts have once again been ignored. What does it take to get your attention Hylis?
they are on a holiday since ur last post mate ;)
PS i agree with ur post.

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Hylis
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by Hylis » 23 Jul 2013, 08:53

I am not on holiday, but I said already many things on this topic and others. Sadzealot is giving me lessons, somehow, saying that I am not taking game design related decisions, like if the game was made just of nothing.
really sad zealot wrote:And neither has anything to do with the gameplay. And I feel the same goes for MJ. You nerfed it, and you explained it, but it hasn't really been explained from a gameplay perspective. You've given reasons, but none of them really matters because they're arbritrary.
How lucky we are! We do just arbritraty stuff, and we happen to have a game that some says the gameplay was perfect before the removal of the micro jump.

There are at least four strong arguments for the removal of the microjump, and that's why they have been removed. But you can really ask yourself if having twenty arguments would convince someone that is unhappy to become happy.

I read all the feelings of the players, and they are ever true, but when I see the way sadzealot is insulting our work without reaction of others, I believe it is ok to say that the discussion is bias. I am taking decision more coldly, based on argument, for the future of the game, even if you believe the countrary. I would be stupid to do otherwise, even if it is still possible to make stupid choices: and that's why I read carefully. But so far, there is nearly no argument specific to microjump: it is often more related to the desire of some top skilled players to have speed & skill. So, if this can be achieve in another way, and that the troubles that are specific to the microjump be removed, then it would be the better since I don't think that keeping major flaws would do good for the future of the game.

It was like the strafe spamming of the alpha that was exploitng the reality of ping to bring chaos on dodging time. Really bad thing, and when we removed it, a lot of highly skilled players went away or started to argue in an unpleasant way, mostly based on how Shootmania is not as good as Quake. What can I say other than: go play Quake, and tell me here: what is the main issue with it. We will see how brillant you are in gamedesign, lessons giver. But making games is my job since 10 years, and you are yet to prove that you accept me as a pro. It does not mean I am always right, but I have a more global solid approach than: "shootmania should be a fast fps, so bring microjump back, you are so bad at game design"

By the way, we are going to test an half reload of laser when nucleus is denied, to accelerate the pace and nerf the nucleus, including Siege (that we would love to have time to consolidate, and I know that nucleus is OP in there) Being capable to go from one mode to another with knowledge of gameplay is something positive. A player must not have to learn again too many thing when changing rules. If you want different gameplay, then use different games. The same for Trackmania.

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dreammyw0w
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by dreammyw0w » 23 Jul 2013, 10:19

you shouldnt be offended by 1 person this easily Hylis.
This forum is really polite if you would compare it to other games' forums.

Besides, some people are a bit frustrated about the removal of MJ. Its normal. So they make a 'rage-post'.
People litteraly trained for the MJ. Like weeeeeks/months. Its not something you could do in 1day after the first try.( Like mastering the spray of an AK in CS. Even after years of training you get better in it.) And then NADEO removed the MJ...

I think we are allowed to be mad :oops: This doesnt mean I approve of the way sadzealot is posting stuff.
But its just 1 person. This topic also had a lot of good replies. Dont forget that.

Btw you never can make a game everybody likes. There will always be stuff someone hates & then you get complaints on the forums... You should know this.


And one more thing : I like the fact that you want an alternative option for speed and maybe in a couple of months we can have something new, but I dont believe topteams will ever change to B3-settings & this makes me sad. There arent a lot of teams & thats why I dont want to have 2 settings. Lets all play the same settings please & dont divide the community. Topteams got top by training B2.

Its like me... Im pretty good in SM in B2. Enable B3 & I can see my skill really drop. Im too lazy to train again.


PS : I prefere the removal of the fulljump button & give everyone a MJ-button. Why isnt this a good solution? This wouldnt change the gameplay we always had & loved.

Alexey85
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by Alexey85 » 23 Jul 2013, 10:47

dreammyw0w wrote:[...]People litteraly trained for the MJ. Like weeeeeks/months. Its not something you could do in 1day after the first try.[...]
I couldn't do MJ at all until (ironically enough) update that removes it from B3 settings. And then I disovered the technique with which I learned to MJ in no time. So in my case MJ was not something I was improving upon gradually, but it was like a switch from "i can't do it all" to "i can do it easily". In other words MJ is a mechanic that I mastered through a random discovery. If this is a common case, I think it is good it is removed (in its current form), even though it added to the gameplay a lot.

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Hylis
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by Hylis » 23 Jul 2013, 10:49

I am not offended by one post, and you should know this since the time I am here or ther :mrgreen:

I am saying that there is a lack of reaction to bad posts that illustrates how this is more a place to "ask for something" than to really debate. All arguments in one direction are used instead of managing the balance. The post of Kabal is ignored as well.

I don't say also that it is everybody who are doing this. For example, you gave a good argument somewhere, if I remember well, that micro jump was causing trouble for rocket bumping. I don't feel that MJS (for micro jump spamming) would do good to the game.

I am joking with this MJS, because tricks, like MJ (so it has a name) are things that are creating artificial gap between players, somehow: either you know it and master it, either you don't. It is not about your pure skill, but about your training to do a trick. It is rare in sport to have this brutal gap. I find that 'ping pong' smashing is a little like that, or that you have some things like that on 'babbyfoot' It is boring to play in a situation of both side are on both side of this gap. I like continuity in learning. If you play current gameplay, you don't have to relearn so much, you mainly know that your 'trick learning & mouse buying' is not going to make you better than others. But what is the purpose of a skill game, if not trying to be better by yourself, more than with tricks? I very much like Starcraft as a game, but that's impossible to play against friends because of learning. There is this kind of trouble in many games, but not so much in football, badminton or else. When you look for a good game, think more about the friend you would like to play with, than yourself. I humiliated a lot of people in Quake in my time, and some players feel superior and happy for doing this, even many years about these matches. Me, I feel bad, guilty of stupid vanity and played more and more alone until I stopped. MJ is going in that direction, and people that are capable to understand AND accept it seem less the top worldwide quake players than their friends. Is it not logical, somehow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoYneUkZquA#t=16m50s

Fairness in sport is also being about trying to make the competition with good chances of outcome. It lacks in the Americas Cup and exist in football or the way the NFL & NBA are handled. I dislike that being tall gives you too many advantages in basketball and volleyball. I prefer football for this, even if I am quite taller than average and made two years in basketball club and that I am more than bad at football (grew up in canada) I prefer things to be as fair as possible, end of story. We are working on a smaller small jump, that is progressively small with the lenght of the click, and may provide an advantage for super cool mice, but this advantage should be of a much much smaller scale than the MJ. It is like 120hz or framerate. It is better to have higher FPS and screen, but it does not create such a wide gap; it creates it with continuity.

Anyway, players should thank us for trying to keep their friends around, and it does not seem like that ^_^

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dreammyw0w
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by dreammyw0w » 23 Jul 2013, 10:52

Alexey85 wrote:
dreammyw0w wrote:[...]People litteraly trained for the MJ. Like weeeeeks/months. Its not something you could do in 1day after the first try.[...]
I couldn't do MJ at all until (ironically enough) update that removes it from B3 settings. And then I disovered the technique with which I learned to MJ in no time. So in my case MJ was not something I was improving upon gradually, but it was like a switch from "i can't do it all" to "i can do it easily". In other words MJ is a mechanic that I mastered through a random discovery. If this is a common case, I think it is good it is removed (in its current form), even though it added to the gameplay a lot.

Doing it 1x is easy. Im talking about applying MJ's to all sorts of situations. First you use it for just basic-sprinting. Then you're using it to dodge rockets ... And then you just start to use it for everything.

Im still learning everyday and i have 7k matches. Dunno how you managed to make a switch & just do it :/


@Hylis : I dont know what to say for now :). You make good arguements, but yeah... for now ill just stick with B2. Im waiting for the future & cant wait to see with what alternative you come up with.
If I have a good idea I'll post it here, as always.
Last edited by dreammyw0w on 23 Jul 2013, 11:02, edited 1 time in total.

Joader
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by Joader » 23 Jul 2013, 11:01

You made a lot of valid points here and I can understand your decision to take of microjumps a bit more now.
Just two things that feel weird to me here:

1.: Why didnt you remove it completely and kept it for Elite? As Dreammy already said this creates an unnecessary gap between players.

2.: In an interview back in the alpha (I think it was @ E3, not sure though) you stated that you wanted shootmania to be a really skillrequiering, fast-paced FPS. With the removal of microjumps you contradict both these points in a way. As caspa stated earlier, the removal of microjumps limits the skill ceiling in a way AND the game definitely plays out more slowly.

Lastly I dont hear that many people complaining about microjumps anymore. Pretty much everyone knows how to do them and the difference between the peripherals (aka mice) doesn't play as big of a role as I thought it would.
For example Im using a wireless mouse (Razer Mamba) and at first I thought this is undoable, but with a bit of practise I can say that I can do microjumps perfectly 90% of the time.

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