[Thoughts]The good things about B3

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bosnak
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by bosnak » 04 Aug 2013, 17:07

I am all for new meta in competitive aspects, games has to evolve and the way he play has to change.
andrewCanDoAll wrote:There are some things that aren't a big deal
New micro jump on the latest version is very playable. Many North American teams have begun playing with it and no one has complained. You don't leave the ground when done properly (So you aren't an easy target whenever you want to use stamina).
I don't agree with that..

I would like specifics on this. Micros ARE NOT mouse dependent. I have tested 5 different mice that have been made in the past 5 years with the same result. I'd like to have a long term micro user disagree here.Why is this nerfed in b3? When you micro in B3 there is hangtime where you can't do anything but float. What's the point of that then? Micros are used for immediate dodge movements. Now attackers and defenders float for ~.5s mid air causing a counterintuitive movement to our b2 dodge.

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dreammyw0w
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by dreammyw0w » 04 Aug 2013, 19:29

bosnak wrote: I would like specifics on this. Micros ARE NOT mouse dependent. I have tested 5 different mice that have been made in the past 5 years with the same result. I'd like to have a long term micro user disagree here.Why is this nerfed in b3? When you micro in B3 there is hangtime where you can't do anything but float. What's the point of that then? Micros are used for immediate dodge movements. Now attackers and defenders float for ~.5s mid air causing a counterintuitive movement to our b2 dodge.
THIS was what i wanted to say all along.
FLOATING is the keyword.

TORAKI
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by TORAKI » 05 Aug 2013, 01:35

i just can't understand every decision ur making for what u say "THE BEST FOR THE FUTURE" when the present of this game is hanging by a thread... nothing i've seen in this past month make sense to me : b2 was actually being playd and enjoyd alot in the competitive scene with all the positive and negative things it had (once again i repeat i've never seen a competitive player ,could be from a top team or could be the random guy from public server, COMPLAINING ABOUT MACROS.. i mean seriously we are canceling a fundamental mechanic coz a bunch of guys rage about that? ) joust was gettin bigger and bigger in both the competitive scene and fun scene and now *puff* it's all gone everybody says it became UNPLAYABLE , the game was fast , was fun to watch and had some unique feature wich first of all i quote : MICROJUMPS; so now we have all this things and u just take them and crush them changing every little inch of gameplay .. it don't make any sense and it's like all the community is standing up and sayin "HEY PLEASE WE CAN'T PLAY LIKE THIS" and u guys are just blind ; it's like ur vision is clouded by some things only u have in mind.. this game was supposed to be community based and ESPORT and when we are marching towards these goals u just change EVERYTHING ;......and we are supposed to start everything from scratch?.. i hope i made a point ; my 2 cents :)

i wanna mark a sentence wich i want everybody to read carefully you say "THE BEST FOR THE FUTURE" when the present of this game is hanging by a thread; and that is not a threat ! it's just an honest and authentic toughts of mine

caspa
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by caspa » 05 Aug 2013, 03:21

B3 evaluation (for the purposes of this thread, I'd also like to see Hylis state his opinion on what beta3 really adds to the game, and why it is better than b2 for him)

"Super Walljump off Red block" - just a new sort of walljump, effectively adding a walljump to small powerblocks that MIGHT make for some new random moves in elite. No big deal.

"Fast reload on kill" - Changes the flow of the game. Punishes opportunistic play (from defenders), rewards quick aimers. Having had to adjust to the regular rail reload time, playing with fast reload is very disconcerting and uncomfortable as it majorly alters defensive timings. If it was active only for final 15 seconds, it might actually have some use (Need to test that tho)

"Multi-rail" - Saw suggestions for this since I began playing a year ago. Find it weird that its being implemented now. While it would take some skill to actually line up a +3 shot, the instances of this happening on purpose are very low. I haven't actually tested this yet (because I want to have as much b2 playtime before it is taken away from me). Regardless, I don't think my opinion will change on that after testing.

"New walljumps" - As far as I am concerned, this will just simplify the game more once again and remove any possibility to really explore the wj system. I may make a video showing some differences, people should watch B-Hash's yt vids to see what is possible with the b2 wj mechanics and why it is so awesome. Myself and others have begun to really experiment with WJs lately and come up with some really nice stuff, so it will really suck to have that part of the game removed. Back to simplemania.

"Microjumps" - Already wrote a lengthy post on this matter. The new microjumps are somewhat of a compromise but it still just feels like I'm suspended in the air for much longer than i should be and that quick acceleration is completely lost. For me, what rocked about b2 minijumps was that you could accelerate indefinitely. With b3 its like, you go the same speed for a second before you start to pick up speed. Altho its not a major difference, that is no grounds for keeping it.

Nadeo is inherently altering the way the game works in the name of offering a more casual and and friend-friendly (new term) experience. I believe the faults lie completely with them. However I can understand their angle. For us, the people that enjoy and play this game, the b2 minijump and wj mechanics are perfect and need no changing. For nadeo, they see these two things as bugs in their project and the only way for them to move forward is by fixing them. Had these problems been spotted and fixed by the developers early on, these threads would have never existed. Saying that, the game was left to develop like this and people went on their business learning the game while Nadeo had other ideas.

Honestly I would like to have my money back as I have been sold a different game to what was advertised to me. If Nadeo spent their time and resources polishing an already quite decent game (Beta2), instead of trying to take it in a different direction (Beta3, what would have happened if we had lasers on def now...) then we might have a much bigger community.

It just annoys me, the transparency of Hylis sometimes. Why is he pushing all these new features which about 5% of the community likes? Myself and a large majority of the competitive community have been asking for an Anti-cheat system and the ability to see other players latency ingame. Sens and I have raised the latency issue on several occasions and Hylis even pretended to have not heard about it before and even wrote it down (on a notepad which was surely on its way to the bin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BLbAM18TtQ ). Fundamental requirements of an FPS like these are essential, but still we know nothing about them. I'm tired of getting forced onto french servers versus full french teams who accuse me of being unfair and whatever else they can think of...

PS: I would also like to address some points from this thread (http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic. ... 4&start=50) too, when will it be opened? This quote from Hylis to sadzealot in particular made me go WTF "You talk about skill; but win against the top teams before saying that there is a low skillceiling." First of all is that really how the lead developer should be talking to people in the community? As someone in a "top" team and a very seasoned FPS game player, I can safely say that SM does have a very low skillceiling. This is one of the easiest FPS games i've ever seen for someone to break into - thats part of what drew many people towards the competitive scene (at least in the beginning). The learning curve in SM is nothing like quake/UT/cs, and people are already able to come in with little to no experience and do quite well. (There are quite a lot of good players out there in the community who had no FPS experience before SM). TLDR: The game is already sooooooo easy to get in to

Hylis
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by Hylis » 05 Aug 2013, 08:18

Having a low barrier of entry does not mean to have a low skill ceiling at all. You can climb an infinitely high mountain, which is different of the steepness of it.

Look, aAa won again the Go4 (three tournaments in a row won) It means they are above many other players. The climbing is just lest steep than in other games, but you can climb a lot. In fact, you so much have to climb that it is yourself that has to change, meaning that your aim, you team work, your contentration capacities and maybe your positive attitude will lead you to the victory.

But even if aAa are above the others, you would still enjoy to play against them. It is the skill gap that is generated is smaller than in other game. But this is not a default, it is a quality, like for football.

About anticheat, I don't think you can say anything, since we are silently catching cheaters and that there is still to be found one true fact of one versus a lot of false accusations so far. About latency, I remember well, but I hesitate, because people are sometimes too negative, and I don't want flame online about ping thing. But the way you accuse me of pretending (I forgot by the time they ask) and I even made the design after that the ° key would trigger it above the score board in overlay. So, I don't think that encouraging insults is a good thing. Look at the way sadzealot talks, even if a lot had to be censored, and how you say: "First of all is that really how the lead developer should be talking to people in the community?"

Mousesports, Lemondogs, aAa seems to quite good at the moment. aAa is consistent on BO3. Even in football, it is not as regular, and matches are much longer. Do matches of 90 minutes, and you will see how the same team win again and again.

But when you are surprised of the way we talk compared to how the guy who are talking about is just saying negative things like "fuck you", I don't know why, I have a doubt that even this obvious thing will be accepted as true. I feel that there is a bias in your judgement. If you would admit it, it would be a first step maybe. ++

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UrinStein
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by UrinStein » 05 Aug 2013, 10:55

Hylis wrote: you so much have to climb that it is yourself that has to change, meaning that your aim, you team work, your contentration capacities and maybe your positive attitude will lead you to the victory.
Aim, teamwork, concentration and attitude.
Those are huge factors in matches indeed. The problem is, none of them is game specific.
Those are not things you learn especially by playing the game. Except for aim it all sounds more like 'mastering yourself' than 'mastering the game' so I'd rather recommend meditation if you want to win matches than playing Shootmania.

If you guys want Shootmania to be a simplistic game in which the needed skills to win are broken down to their core, then just say it out loud.
A team comrade of mine (Jan aka itzviolent) always says this one sentence when he is building maps:
"I am making it simple because I want the players to be creative rather than the map."

I like that attitude and I also like Shootmania for its simplicity but there are two problems with the way it's going atm:

1. Even though it is fun to compete with others in a solid and simple gameplay, people will get bored with it sometime. It is fun to explore stuff ingame and to improve in somthing less subtle than 'concentration and teamwork'.
In TMF Stadium a lot of really talented drivers who had played for years were still learning things like Speedslides and they got immediate feedback when they got it right.
That is something that motivates to try more. Apparently top players like Caspa also are still exploring the B2-movement and that is something that will keep them in the game.

2. A lot of us is playing since closed Beta and in this year the development had mostly one direction: more stuff, more possibilities.
It is quite surprising that it is now taking one step backwards. Noone seems to now what to expect now and that is why there is this huge discussion about it.
I think it is up to you guys (Nadeo) to make a clear statement what the more experienced and pro gamers have to expect.
Are you willing to find an appropriate alternative to the 'lame' B3-WJ?
Are you not?
Or are you still considering both options?
All these well known people are posting so much in these threads but they don't get the response they are asking for:
Will you listen to the experienced gamers, or will you do your own thing for the sake of a 'friend-friendly' game?
kadaz wrote:> That's where I disagree, cause the truth is, the truth is, weather you agree to disagree or not with liking it.
> I know I speak intelligent English

MuNgLo
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by MuNgLo » 05 Aug 2013, 12:24

Yey a team won 3 times in a row in a game that struggles with keeping it's players motivated, in summertime even. Talk about statistically insignificant.

From what I've seen Hylis write so far, disregarding the personal attacks on others and avoiding to give straight answers, it seems to me he has a vision of a game with a narrow skillgap. Still he goes on about how that doesn't limit skill at all like the infinite mountain stuff above. It's really 2 incompatible visions.

He dismisses B2 wj's as "tricks" and seems to argue for making the game easier makes skill more important and more of a deciding factor.

SM should really be a flat surface then with no jump and just a instagibmode. hey, easy to learn and you could argue that best team would still win and therefore the game is only skilldetermined.
problem is that there is _NO_ thought on fun and challenging gameplay in that reasoning. Without those things there really would be no point in playing the game.
Many already thinks the game are at that point, taking it further will only scare of more people.

Hylis also talks about aAa playing well on B3. Wonder if he picked up that they used B2 on QuakeCon(as far as I know) for the ESWC qualifier. Thus braking their own rules rather then playing in B3.

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dreammyw0w
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by dreammyw0w » 05 Aug 2013, 13:02

I agree completely with CASPA about everything. So ty CASPA for the long post, I couldnt have done it any better.

The game was advertised as 'an esports game'. 'The next biggest competitive game' and now every update is to make it more welcoming for new players. I dont understand why...
You are doing this to get more players? Well in the short-term this can be better... but because the game is so dumbed-down people will quickly leave because the game hasnt have any depth.

For me B2 was perfect ( and im not talking about the microjumps this time ) ... It was sooooooo balanced.
1attacker with 3armors vs 3defenders with 1 armor. Timing was perfect, reload was perfect, stamina was perfect.
It just felt right, balanced & finished...

U needed to train walljumps ( why is this a bad thing? )
I remember how I was so happy when I finally mastered the walljump in the beginning of the map Castle.(the old castle)
It took some training, but after a while you could do this jump 95/100 times.

Now with every mappool you have to explore every map again and figure out where you can do a nice walljump and train them all over again. How does this not sound good? This is , imo , how it should be.
It might be a bug on paper or on ur monitor, but in practice this really is a good walljumping-sytem.


B2 néver éver needed to change.
The biggest problems with this game are :

1. Fences , fences & fences. ( static defense )
--> You should find new ways for defenders to defend, because fences are boring.
NADEO should come up with new pieces for cover or something.
Good examples are the arrow-pad & red-blocks. These blocks created new possibilities. We need more stuff like this.
Because blocks also have the power to change the gameplay. Not just the settings. (B2-B3)


2. The pole. Every end of the round is decided at a pole.
--> Why cant there be a different capture point. So on this map you cap a pole, but on the other map you need to cap something else. These little things would make the game less repetitive.

3. All maps look the same.

4. Maniaplanet is sooooo outdated. The chat is rediculous.
When I ask my friends to install maniaplanet to play some SM with me , they start laughing with tears about how maniaplanet looks. Its really off-putting.

5. Focus more on features that you have & make them better.
--> Current ranking sucks. 20x #1 of the world? The entire TOP500 doesnt get any LP anymore on 80% of the servers.
Yesterday, after 10months I finally became #1 of the world. I always thought I would feel good. But guess what... people were making fun of me cuz being #1 in this game doesnt mean shit.
--> We want a ranking that shows skill, not who has no-life.
--> Achievements ( steam achievements )
--> Ping????? ( but you say no , because u are afraid of negative feedback??? WTF. )
--> Lets TRY to remove 3-pixel-aim. Let us see how the game feels with 1pixel-aim. Just to test it.
--> Make a lobby system & let me invite people.
--> The ingame competition manager is 1 BIG joke.
--> The ingame team-pages are 1 BIG joke.
--> Improve netcode
--> Improve hitboxes
--> ...
--> Add a ranking system to servers that displays some stats about the players and who is the best player on that server. Like in CS1.6 where u typed /RANK to see this cool info.
Its these little things that makes players come back.
And i know this already exists but make it default on public servers etc etc...

THIS is how the game evolves; not with changing B2 :)

mzhh
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by mzhh » 05 Aug 2013, 16:00

dreammyw0w wrote:I agree completely with CASPA about everything. So ty CASPA for the long post, I couldnt have done it any better.

The game was advertised as 'an esports game'. 'The next biggest competitive game' and now every update is to make it more welcoming for new players. I dont understand why...
You are doing this to get more players? Well in the short-term this can be better... but because the game is so dumbed-down people will quickly leave because the game hasnt have any depth.

For me B2 was perfect ( and im not talking about the microjumps this time ) ... It was sooooooo balanced.
1attacker with 3armors vs 3defenders with 1 armor. Timing was perfect, reload was perfect, stamina was perfect.
It just felt right, balanced & finished...

U needed to train walljumps ( why is this a bad thing? )
I remember how I was so happy when I finally mastered the walljump in the beginning of the map Castle.(the old castle)
It took some training, but after a while you could do this jump 95/100 times.

Now with every mappool you have to explore every map again and figure out where you can do a nice walljump and train them all over again. How does this not sound good? This is , imo , how it should be.
It might be a bug on paper or on ur monitor, but in practice this really is a good walljumping-sytem.


B2 néver éver needed to change.
The biggest problems with this game are :

1. Fences , fences & fences. ( static defense )
--> You should find new ways for defenders to defend, because fences are boring.
NADEO should come up with new pieces for cover or something.
Good examples are the arrow-pad & red-blocks. These blocks created new possibilities. We need more stuff like this.
Because blocks also have the power to change the gameplay. Not just the settings. (B2-B3)


2. The pole. Every end of the round is decided at a pole.
--> Why cant there be a different capture point. So on this map you cap a pole, but on the other map you need to cap something else. These little things would make the game less repetitive.

3. All maps look the same.

4. Maniaplanet is sooooo outdated. The chat is rediculous.
When I ask my friends to install maniaplanet to play some SM with me , they start laughing with tears about how maniaplanet looks. Its really off-putting.

5. Focus more on features that you have & make them better.
--> Current ranking sucks. 20x #1 of the world? The entire TOP500 doesnt get any LP anymore on 80% of the servers.
Yesterday, after 10months I finally became #1 of the world. I always thought I would feel good. But guess what... people were making fun of me cuz being #1 in this game doesnt mean shit.
--> We want a ranking that shows skill, not who has no-life.
--> Achievements ( steam achievements )
--> Ping????? ( but you say no , because u are afraid of negative feedback??? WTF. )
--> Lets TRY to remove 3-pixel-aim. Let us see how the game feels with 1pixel-aim. Just to test it.
--> Make a lobby system & let me invite people.
--> The ingame competition manager is 1 BIG joke.
--> The ingame team-pages are 1 BIG joke.
--> Improve netcode
--> Improve hitboxes
--> ...
--> Add a ranking system to servers that displays some stats about the players and who is the best player on that server. Like in CS1.6 where u typed /RANK to see this cool info.
Its these little things that makes players come back.
And i know this already exists but make it default on public servers etc etc...

THIS is how the game evolves; not with changing B2 :)

Hyils and co. , print this post, and go ahed in this way

PLEASE.

caspa
Posts: 72
Joined: 02 Jul 2013, 19:03

Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by caspa » 05 Aug 2013, 18:07

Hylis wrote:Having a low barrier of entry does not mean to have a low skill ceiling at all. You can climb an infinitely high mountain, which is different of the steepness of it.

Look, aAa won again the Go4 (three tournaments in a row won) It means they are above many other players. The climbing is just lest steep than in other games, but you can climb a lot. In fact, you so much have to climb that it is yourself that has to change, meaning that your aim, you team work, your contentration capacities and maybe your positive attitude will lead you to the victory.

But even if aAa are above the others, you would still enjoy to play against them. It is the skill gap that is generated is smaller than in other game. But this is not a default, it is a quality, like for football.

About anticheat, I don't think you can say anything, since we are silently catching cheaters and that there is still to be found one true fact of one versus a lot of false accusations so far. About latency, I remember well, but I hesitate, because people are sometimes too negative, and I don't want flame online about ping thing. But the way you accuse me of pretending (I forgot by the time they ask) and I even made the design after that the ° key would trigger it above the score board in overlay. So, I don't think that encouraging insults is a good thing. Look at the way sadzealot talks, even if a lot had to be censored, and how you say: "First of all is that really how the lead developer should be talking to people in the community?"

Mousesports, Lemondogs, aAa seems to quite good at the moment. aAa is consistent on BO3. Even in football, it is not as regular, and matches are much longer. Do matches of 90 minutes, and you will see how the same team win again and again.

But when you are surprised of the way we talk compared to how the guy who are talking about is just saying negative things like "fuck you", I don't know why, I have a doubt that even this obvious thing will be accepted as true. I feel that there is a bias in your judgement. If you would admit it, it would be a first step maybe. ++
I am aware that there is a big difference between skill ceiling and a low barrier of entry. The game already has an extremely low barrier of entry - I don't see the need for it to become even easier. The new mechanics of B3 are making that barrier lower again, but also lowering the skill ceiling - You're affecting both.

Actually mouz won 2 go4sm in a row (no one else had), then the monthly finals. Just correcting you... regarding the rest of the paragraph theres not much to say. I already know how to improve myself and be a good player.

Regarding anti-cheat, it shouldn't be silent. People need to know that there is an anti-cheat working and actively catching people. Something like this (http://clanbase.ggl.com/news.php?nid=37 ... f_aU23DeA0) would be good, as people know that there are cheaters being brought to justice. Its for peace of mind.

Regarding in-game latency - its imperative that an online FPS game has this. You say that you hesitate because you don't want flame online about it.... I try to stay serious but I have been on the recieving end of SO much flame and so many other people too because people lie about their connections and its almost impossible to find a fair server sometimes because people are so stubborn. Go watch some old aAa vs Infused streams and you'll see the chat there. If everyone could actually see everyone elses ping (like in almost every game in this genre), then those flames and confrontations could actually be avoided. I really don't understand why this hasn't been implemented yet, its SO important.

I accuse you of pretending because there have been countless occasions where I and other people have tried to bring suggestions to you and these forums, which have been ignored time and time again. It is really frustrating and hard to get through to you sometimes, because after reading your responses to other peoples posts, you often really miss the point and divert the subject. This is not an insult and neither has anything else I wrote before intended to be but you really need to look at how you communicate with people here. It really feels that you can put a lot of effort into a post here but it gets an effortless and hollow response. Sooner or later myself and others are probably just gonna give up

Instead of adding pointless stuff to gameplay (multi-laser, quick reload) why can't you just work with the stuff that you already have and polish it? People were really happy with this game when beta2 hit. What happened to the old bouncing rockets? That was taken away before they really were able to be explored (much like the minijumps/walljumps of beta2 now, people are finding more ways to use it)

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