[Thoughts]The good things about B3

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Forgot10
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by Forgot10 » 05 Aug 2013, 19:57

Let me raise a subject of microjumps again. What's bad about the new MJ is that there's some delay between my double click and acceleration. In B2 I can sprint instantly.

As for the old MJ being hardware dependent... I plugged my 10 year old bottom-of-the-market mouse with buttons that don't really respond as they used to and did some tests. Sure thing, I can't do the MJ as consistently as with my Logitech G500 (then again, I do fail sometimes under pressure, so is it really the mouse that I need to blame?), but still it's not much of a problem to be able to sprint with no delay at all. So my conclusion is that two things are needed for success with it: notion of how to do it, and a mouse in good shape.

Concerning walljumps. I'm not much of a pro, and movement is definitely not something that I excel at, but I really like watching pro guys doing some sick moves that I can only dream of. Taking that away would make things boring and shallow even from spectator point of view.

And I won't repeat what has already been said about half reload on hit and penetrating laser. Actual Elite players from the competitive scene already made their point.

Hylis
Nadeo
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by Hylis » 05 Aug 2013, 20:28

I don't have so much time to answer all of this. I will mainly answer Caspa.

We are making great efforts, and it's a little like the guy who made the map pack, and is sentenced to 25 years of jail (for fun, but to illustrate) to make a good game. You accuse me of not giving clear answer, but you should really read again. I have answered tons of times with the reasons of changes and if you want still more clear answer, as I often do, here it is: I don't want an anticheat hall of shame, probably for the same spirit as avoiding insults or attacks like many players are doing. It is also this attitude that tells me that I may have to find another option than putting public the ping information. Instead of saying "WTF?" like one is doing, I would rather try to find a better solution (max latency dev first, server settings to max ping tolerance etc.) things without rules and human moderation in sport or eSport is not that good. You may say that my answer is hollow, because you will probably not like it but it's the same way I am doing since the beginning: answering with arguments to questions and explaining why players should be more constructive and positive.

We have implemented tons of users suggestions. You just don't see them anymore. Some of them: autofocus ping, rocket late denial, multilaser (already ask since alpha by top level players) setscores, pauses, replay +1 & nametags, no sounds on grass, custom crosshairs, smaller hitbox, other weapon ammos already loaded, smaller small jump (when I think that progressive was under critics) remove of random moves (wj b2) force color (and stronger option on last update) custom sensitivity for laser, audio balance to diminish ambiant noise, clearer textures, smaller reverbs, nerf of laser pads in defense, laser miss with name of the missed, MR9, remove loss of stamina on red blocks, fixing of microjump according to the vote for a post on a pgm site (+10 0), fixing of random moves of wj according to your team mate etc.

And it's mainly for Elite, but at a greater scale on Maniaplanet, you should see the hundreds of wishlist that we accomplished over the past year.

I also added the two last points, because you should understand that we try to make the game solid, meaning that the critics are taken into account. We will try to bring something more on the table later, probably. But our work is based on listening, whatever you are trying to believe otherwise. It is just more complicated for priorities and it takes just more time than what some are trying to say, a little like a big joke: do that, you are so bad.

Meanwhile, a big issue of the top level is the attitude of the top level. And the answer on this is often hollow, as you say. Why should you not have to clearly answer on that, you and others? You are probably part of the 99% players that does not like the game and are there only for the money, if I believe what your team mate wrote.

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dreammyw0w
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by dreammyw0w » 05 Aug 2013, 21:08

PING:

I dont understand why displaying a ping is such a big deal...
Its an easy way to see who is lagging and it helps in a lot of situations :

- Determining who is lagging.
- Checking if enemies dont lie when they join a server and say its unplayable cuz they have 200ping supposedly.
- If helps the fairplay. If you can see in a blink of an eye that the enemy has 50+ ping than you, you can decide to change server without discussion! Because now, if you tell that you're lagging, NOBODY believes you.

What is the problem if I can see someones ping? Its done in 1000games and nobody ever complained...?
Its a tool to determine the best server & increases fairplay.

= goal, arguments, pro's & cons. I hope u like this constructive feedback NADEO.


ANTI-CHEAT:

Maybe I didnt understand your english, but you said : 'I dont want a cheater hall of fame'

- Well the list of cheaters that get caught isnt public data. Only NADEO knows.
- Cheating should be punished? I would let everybody know that some1 cheats. They DESERVE to be punished.
- Anti-Cheat increases fairplay.
- Evéry competitve esports game has Cheat-detection... ( this is an argument too )
- Players trust & like the game more because they have a safe feeling.
- Waaaaay less people will be calling eachother cheaters.

Why is having a public anti-cheat bad?
- I cannot think of 1 reason.
- NADEO has to put time in it?

I stated the subject, pro's & cons. Do you like my constructive feedback NADEO?


COMUNITY SUGGESTIONS :

We thank you that you listened to us in the past & that you implemented a lot of suggestions. Its a good list & it made the game better.

However, this doesnt mean you have to stop listening. Dont be blind. A LOT of thread are full with complaints about these changes and with reason. So why arent you listening now.
Im on this forums éveeeeeryday. I never saw some much complaints & still you dont accept our arguements & feedback.
Stop feeling offended when some1 says :

'AAH THIS SUX'.

Its the players opinion. And maybe he could have said :

' I dont like this, maybe you could adjust this a bit better"

and be more polite. Dont get offended because someone is a bit rude.
Translate his rudeness to constructive feedback yourself to:

" okay we have another person that doesnt like this change."


Besides, all this rage & rudeness counts as official feedback too.

caspa
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by caspa » 05 Aug 2013, 21:24

Instead of an anti-cheat hall of shame, why don't you just give us some proof that you're actively trying to ban cheaters? Cheaters disrupt the fun of the game, something you're trying to strive for. Its the paranoia of players that lead to topics like "Macros macros everywhere", the same with the threads in the past regarding people with aimbots. I never saw any retribution for those guys and although you say you're dealing with them, for any player in the community it really looks like the opposite because its being kept silent.

You shouldn't be judging a players feedback by the attitude in which he writes it (in my case I'm not even trying to insult or anything that, I'm just trying to get my points across as clear as possible). You should judge the feedback on its actual merits. You shouldn't disregard something immediatly just because the way it was written might offend you, the content of those posts may still be quite worth some consideration. Also please don't paint me with the same brush as Kryw, yes he's my teammate but my own opinions are COMPLETELY seperate from his...

Also, I am not part of that 99% that only plays for money. I've enjoyed this game a lot since I began last year, I'm on the game for a good amount of time each today and I wouldn't be playing this game if I didn't like it. My basis for these posts comes from the fact that up until recently I've been quite happy with the direction that this game was headed, but you can't ignore the fact that many players (both casual and competitive) have strongly made their feelings known. I've not been to a major tournament and most of my prizemoney has come from iseries events and online stuff, so plz don't treat me like one of those people (who's opinions are 100% as valid as mine nonetheless). I've done a lot to try bring people over from other games (in particular UT2004 where i am from) but many of them aren't interested due to little things like the user interface being buggy and hard to navigate, rather than the actual gameplay.

Many of the things that have been implemented are just things that should be there anyway. Setting scores, pausing, customisation (xhairs, skins, colours etc) shouldn't be given to us like some sort of privelige, they are there for people to make the game feel more comfortable for them after transitioning from what game they came from before. They don't change the gameplay, they just make it a better experience. The main thing that people are complaining about are the minijump/walljump changes, which do vastly interfere with the gameplay. You've made some good choices (MR9, new ping system) but then theres also stuff which doesn't really serve any purpose/is broken: for example, laser missing: can you honestly tell me that this is accurate every time? I think many of these things you put in (like xhair customisation) were not there before as this is (as far as I know) your first experience working on an FPS title, so those things may not have been clear to you at first

pksens
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by pksens » 06 Aug 2013, 03:40

I do think the new-new minijump isn't so bad, I could get used to it and I think the scene would 'swallow' it for ESWC if it was required to play with B3. But it is to be clear: a compromise, not a fix. The walljump scenario is a similar thing.
The laser reload has to be changed, removed if anything. If you are going to compromise and put it to 80% or some arbitrary figure, just know that again the community will be forced to swallow this non-fix for a problem that isn't there.

But it casts a trend: every week or 2 for the while has come with bad news.
We've had microjump nerfed to hell and back, B3 eswc announced so the thoughts of playing with B3 WJ, MJ & reload times, the completely strange F2P invitation model (seriously I'd love to know what the main reason is behind this), the ESWC maplist, the lack of any major title picking up Shootmania for tournaments and the plethora of comments from you which address how you want to approach esports (by not approaching) and the target audience of the game you wish to cater for primarily.
Only so much we can take Hylis!!

andrewcandoall
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by andrewcandoall » 06 Aug 2013, 10:13

I think a lot of people are okay with the new reload. It rewards attackers for good aim. Also makes the game more exciting for spectators.

pksens
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by pksens » 06 Aug 2013, 11:02

'A lot of people'
Name me one player in a team that finished in the top 8 for a 'high profile' cup.

Hylis
Nadeo
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by Hylis » 06 Aug 2013, 11:54

Anticheat is a good example. It's much more complex to deal and to talk than making you aware of how it works. Your lack of thrust between yourselves (false accusations) and toward us, is again, a negative attitude. The fact is that there has been many false accusations that we busted, and that's it's much more difficult to do that than the opposite: telling someone is cheating is ten times easier than affirming that he is not. There are good reason for us to keep informations private, but it does not mean that we are not running a good anticheat system. I just can't talk on how it's done. But most matches are looked upon the anticheat system. I can not tell under which conditions and how for obvious reaons. But stop to have this lack of trust. You see that the online teams win also offline, and it happened with a lot of top players, and still happening by the way.

On the other hand, you do not answer clearly about the top level player attitude issues. It's running since more than a year, and is still not fixed. People tend to disregard the game, bash it as much as possible in many public occasions, and it's strange to see that people that support my strategy feel obliged to write me in private to tell me so. You are totally not taking this trouble with as much passion as you are attacking us on other points, while I strongly believe that your scene (not mine, I am not playing at top level) is suffering much more than that. When you will start to fix this among yourselves, then I will start to believe that you are really talking for the good of your scene. Otherwise, it is easy to understand that I am not going to fight as hard for people that are not even capable to handle this on their side, for themselves. We supported tournaments, I have been present a lot, and yet, it's mainly post of critics and even insults etc. Okay, it's not you, but if the positive people are ashamed to answer other players and ask to fix something, but have no trouble to give me development lessons, there is something wrong around. And I know I will have support from people that read that. People that organize stuff, make maps, support actions, spend a lot of time to communicate and are badly threated knows exactly what I am talking about. Make comments, post and poll to fix this if you want to ask us to fix stuff. And answer this issue clearly once and for all, not in a hollow way.


For the things we have done, you are telling that we made obvious thing for your confort, but you are totally ignoring the priorities. Tell to a trackmania player that the force color opponent should be a priority, and we will see how he reacts. Look other games, and tell me if they would do this, change the textures or else for the competitivness. When top players try to insinuate that the game is bad, and I ask what they would play instead, the list is not that long. Last time they just answered me with a future game that is not even out yet. All of this to avoid to acknowledge that making priority in development for the competitive scene has been really good from the studio, opposed at what they would like to make believe.

I like the post of pksens, since it brings another angle to express the situation, base on accumulation. Some frustration are based on lack of explanations (like for the invitation system) and the other based on the game direction having to adapt to other constraints, as compromise. I see it more as an opportunity to solve both quests, but along the way, it looks like compromise. The left/right strage spamming of the alpha removal was under that category. But using this to teleport was really ugly, even if top players wished to keep it.

So, to ease your pain a little, at least I can explain the invitation system. Of course, we believe that the invitation system is better for the future of the game, or we would be really strange to do it. The reason are multiple and complicated.

One of them is that the game does not lack so much of capacity to entertain players (we see the ingame numbers) but the capacity to be known and explain to other players what the game is and why it is interesting to come in the first place. So, we would like to invite them more than saying just it's available. Playing a game for free is a privilege that we would like to leverage in order to raise the visibility of the invitation.

Another one is that we want to move more surely. We can easilly go from invite to open demo, while it's complicated to do on the other way around. Big success have used the invite system, and we would like to learn some stuff there. So, it's an oppoturnity to test and improve, like we did with progressive jump, for example. And the fact that invites are more progressive is a safety belt. There are more Echelon 0 everyday, and they integrate a game with other players. We are working on making matchmaking infrastructure grow as simple as possible. We are fine tuning more the access etc. So, it's just more strategic. We have future steps in that strategy, and adapt them each day, looking at the situation.

The game seem ready to go by the viral aspect of it, we just need more seeds. But this seeds should not be made by sacrifying the virality of the game. So, we will carefully look at how we can seed and how.

Of course, if people would invite other players, on other sites, and try to explain that the the game is interesting, it would help. But as I said to Caspa, I think you are part of the problem, without seeing how much some negative players are supporting the opposite of what you would like. You are harvesting the fruits of letting this attitude going around. You, as a group of top players, let an article writes that they would like to put fire to the studio when we say that the Elite would be free at release, and you let people still make strong critics about it last week. Of course, it's not you, or Caspa. But Caspa saying that he does not agree with his team mates saying that 99% doest not like the game, but spending time to explain how he disagree with me, is not helping the popularity of the game, and especially for the competitive players. And honnestly, it's more your trouble than mine, because my role is to make a superb game, and I have enough feedback to do it already. It's more about time than being capable to know what has to be done. For MJ & WJ, it was a necessity step to be able to reach higher: like a sand castle that you have to hit on top to make it more solid to had something. I am saying this, because I don't think I will be able to answer you anymore before me leaving for well deserved holidays, even if some are still here thinking we are so bad at game dev.

I know many loves the game, and play it, and train hard etc. I am here for them. But I invite them to be more positive since a long time. We are here for the party, it's a game :D

Have a nice month of august, and see you in September!

MuNgLo
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by MuNgLo » 06 Aug 2013, 15:09

People are negative cause there is not a single positive thing on the horizon.(in regards to esport scene in Elite)

mzhh
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by mzhh » 06 Aug 2013, 15:20

MuNgLo wrote:People are negative cause there is not a single positive thing on the horizon.(in regards to esport scene in Elite)
*

:cry: :cry:

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