Trilaser - Needs some serious work

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roguesergeant
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by roguesergeant » 13 Aug 2013, 12:56

This is why changing the Tri Laser is a bad idea.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-P95mm_GTM

The game would get 100x easier.

andrewcandoall
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by andrewcandoall » 13 Aug 2013, 13:01

Making long range shots that easily would break the game as defense would be impossible. If you think the game is too campy now then you would be in for a rude awakening

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Cerovan
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by Cerovan » 13 Aug 2013, 15:36

roguesergeant wrote:This is why changing the Tri Laser is a bad idea.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-P95mm_GTM

The game would get 100x easier.
You know, i can give you the same kind of video about ShootMania : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yDDIvnHtqY

When you've the skill, you're as efficient in ShootMania as in Quake (aimly talking)
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MuNgLo
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by MuNgLo » 13 Aug 2013, 17:39

Cerovan wrote:
roguesergeant wrote:This is why changing the Tri Laser is a bad idea.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-P95mm_GTM

The game would get 100x easier.
You know, i can give you the same kind of video about ShootMania : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yDDIvnHtqY

When you've the skill, you're as efficient in ShootMania as in Quake (aimly talking)

Sorry but I got to say no on that one. The Quake montage isn't impressive really but if you compare the two clips when it comes to what this thread is about, you can't argue that they are the same in any way. the SM video is very much filler effects and rocket hits and only a few good shots once you exclude full figure shots within 30m or so.
But those aren't the problem.
The problem of trilaser is how it tricks the player. How it in certain situations just behaves completely illogical. like shooting through a narrow opening is easy unless you get a target on the other side of the slit. Then the laser goes off crosshaircenter.
On top of that you have how it effects special circumstances due to defenders being able to work corners/openings/slits to their advantage to the point where an attacker has no chance of hitting them while they at the very least have clear sight of attacker. If defender also is standing on a laserpad this is extremely bad.

There are so many players out there that don't know and tries to take more or less impossible shots with laser. In most new players mind there probably isn't a thought about the laser not being what it looks and (normally) behaves like.

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roguesergeant
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by roguesergeant » 13 Aug 2013, 20:46

Cerovan wrote:
roguesergeant wrote:This is why changing the Tri Laser is a bad idea.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-P95mm_GTM

The game would get 100x easier.
You know, i can give you the same kind of video about ShootMania : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yDDIvnHtqY

When you've the skill, you're as efficient in ShootMania as in Quake (aimly talking)
Kudos xD Good point.

The quake montage, isn't meant to be impressive, I actually believe their all bots to as well. The issue in the video is that the simple shots made from afar is almost done with no skill it's as easy as one, two, and three. That's why it's a perfect example. I get why the trilaser isn't exactly correct. But it's to some peoples argument that it should be like Quake. I think I should have explained a bit better in my opinion MuNgLo. And the people who feel the Quake reticle would be to some use, I hope you're in for a 10 second attack rush because you'd be taken out pretty damn quickly. That's why I like the Trilaser, you know how it works, you can take advantage of it, or you can just let them line stuff up. My two cents, again everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I wish I could find footage of "Elite" in Quake 3, it was called Iron Man. It ended in seconds.

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TMarc
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by TMarc » 13 Aug 2013, 21:19

Not to disrupt the current discussion, but I just had the following thoughts:

- Would it be possible to use the TriLasers logic to prevent friendly fire?
1 crosshair dot on friend doesn't hit - "blip" sound and no shot.
2 or 3 crosshair dots on friend - "meeeeeep" sound - and no shot.

- The TriLaser dots could change their color:
all 3 Green = perfect target, shot possible
2 green, 1 red = high lucky shot risk
1 green, 2 red = most likely target miss
3 red = no hit anyways

- The opponent is always "successfully" hit as soon as at least one TriLaser dot is on it at the time of the shot.
And then the hitpoints cumulate or multiply by count of TriLaser dots on target.
1 dot: 10 points
2 dots: 20 points
3 dots: 40 points

- Depending on the expected target hit probability, the target could be more or less highlighted, provided it is in the line of sight.

- This is related to the crosshair itself:
If people modify the crosshair so it loses the 3 TriLaser dots, or that they are on other positions than the original crosshair has, the correct targeting according to the TriLaser logic will not be possible anymore and will be much more random, right? :?
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MuNgLo
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by MuNgLo » 13 Aug 2013, 23:16

Rougesergeant, sure trilaser has good sides but the bad far outweighs the good as it is now imo. One part you forget about it is that it's impossible to hit when not all 3 dots are on target. That's one of the really bad things. I mean in specific situations where you get one of trilaserdots blocked by whatever(other player, polewire, woodstick) but still have half your screen basically filled with the enemy.

Maybe if you still had a chance for laser to go straight and hit anything in the way. Maybe like 33% for each dot, making a 2 dot shot 66% chance of going straight. On the far end like no dot on target a very low chance of straight shot.
Something like that would feel much more fair.

TMarc, about friendlyfire. It wouldn't be good. For it to work you need the server to control it and then you need to have a go at netcode and run the risk of further desyncing shots/targets between clients and server/client. The alternative would be to run it all on client and that might work for lan and optimal occasions but when you play on internet and client refuses a shot which actually would be a hit on server due to client being a bit more offsync.

Also about crosshair dotcolours. That would be really bad. Just imagine a simple bit fireing as soon as all are green and remember, as it is now all would have to be green to hit.

I like the idea of always hit and declare hit in 3 levels like that. Would make a nice option for gamemode makers to play around with. Chances of Nadeo opening up trilaser so gamemode can declare how many makes a hit and so on is nonexisting though.

On custom crosshairs, well kinda. But you could argue that it will be exactly same level of random but you will just perceive it as more random.
An important thing about custom crosshair is that you need to match the width of trilaser somehow for it to work good. helps a ton when lining up a shot as close as possible to fence-edges and so on. If you aim to close to edge with the center of crosshair you will get a dot on the fence and it will result in a miss.

andrewcandoall
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by andrewcandoall » 14 Aug 2013, 00:16

Munglo you don't understand our logic. The tri laser prevents the game from being to easy for the attacker. Without it the game would be to much in favor of the attacker. Imagine doing pixel shots in The Castle 2. You could stay back and kill atleast 2 defenders from the opposite end of the map. Also a lot of cover would be useless because head shots would be to easy. This would Ruin the upper spot in iron fist for example. The game would be way too campy.

The 1/3 probability per dot is interesting though.
However the current system is fine.

Sephis
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by Sephis » 14 Aug 2013, 01:03

andrewcandoall wrote: However the current system is fine.
It's fine on lan because you can hit easier and farther. Online, it's just shit.

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Cerovan
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by Cerovan » 14 Aug 2013, 09:44

roguesergeant wrote:The quake montage, isn't meant to be impressive,
I know, i just wanted to show that the trilaser is as precise as the Quake railgun (well, under 100m :mrgreen: )

Maybe it asks few time to get used to it, but it's a kind of feature which increase the skillceiling (on how master the trilaser).
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