Trilaser - Needs some serious work

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andrewcandoall
Posts: 69
Joined: 17 Apr 2013, 22:03

Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by andrewcandoall » 14 Aug 2013, 10:39

Cerovan wrote:
roguesergeant wrote:The quake montage, isn't meant to be impressive,
I know, i just wanted to show that the trilaser is as precise as the Quake railgun (well, under 100m :mrgreen: )

Maybe it asks few time to get used to it, but it's a kind of feature which increase the skillceilling (on how master the trilaser).
I agree that the trilaser had a higher skill ceiling

MuNgLo
Posts: 316
Joined: 12 Jul 2012, 03:37

Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by MuNgLo » 14 Aug 2013, 11:35

andrewcandoall wrote:Munglo you don't understand our logic. The tri laser prevents the game from being to easy for the attacker. Without it the game would be to much in favor of the attacker. Imagine doing pixel shots in The Castle 2. You could stay back and kill atleast 2 defenders from the opposite end of the map. Also a lot of cover would be useless because head shots would be to easy. This would Ruin the upper spot in iron fist for example. The game would be way too campy.

The 1/3 probability per dot is interesting though.
However the current system is fine.
No I understand your view fully. I just don't agree. Do you really think we would see maps like castle 2 if the laser was accurate?(Consider that one rhetorical)
In my view it changes skillceiling just like a racecar with a speedlimiter of 100kph would. It would to an extend shift the skills needed but it would overall lower the skillceiling and have some really bad effects on the races. Dynamics of overtaking and racelines would completely change. Sure you could have racetracks built for it. They just wouldn't be suitable for other racecars. And that's the problem really.
The game tries to present itself as a fully fledged racecar and goes out of its way to trick the player it is one.

Sephis actually kinda brings up another bad thing about Trilaser. Since the hitbox tend to shift a bit in online play due to sdt/lag/ping whatever. Problem is that that means that the visual representation of the player on your client(the model) might only be partially covered by the hitbox. Aiming deadcenter on those occasions with trilaser increases the effect of a laggy hitbox. Further adding to good aimers that try SM's frustration.
But that's really a very minor point.

platernitycs
Posts: 39
Joined: 10 Feb 2013, 18:56

Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by platernitycs » 16 Aug 2013, 11:10

Trilaser is a discution since early beta. 1000 of messages were already posted. Some say it ups the skillcelling but no, you are wrong for a simple reason. It is the same as a normal railgun at close range (so more skill not needed) until the ennemy target is smaller as the 3 dots area, and it becomes impossible to hit (so skill will not help you here). Fact is, with 3 dot system you still have to do the EXACT same job as in any other game: targeting the ennemy on the center of your crosshair. Only change is that you cant do it on a certain distance (and it still can hit what is against the logic of 3dot-rule).
Then some say if you can hit from the distance then elite would be pro attacker. You are wrong again, for a simple reason again. Why do you think defenders stay at pole as far as possible from the attacker ? he has to come close and loose time (boring the spectators in the meanwhile), as he cant hit from distance. If he could, what would be the best defense ? let the attacker kill every one from distance as rail>rockets in the distance ? no, defenders would have to go fight next to him. That will bring movement in defense. And defense will always be better than attacker as each defender can almost instakill an attacker.

In the beginning, there was no micro jumps. You had to be constantly aware if you can jump and use your stamina or not. That is challenging. Today double click and BAM stamina in use. Plenty of people will say wow but its hard to double click, cause hardware can take a huge role in here.
Thing is, what i want to say with that, Shootmania concept was first an absolutely simple game, easy to play, difficult to master. and it changed in a complex game (3 dot rules), difficult to play (microjumps) and easy to master (the only thing that changes from pro team to megapro team is aiming. So you're better off playing other games to be good in shootmania).
Than we had updates, that removed other updates, and focuses always on the interfaces (truelly getting worse with every update, just look at score table the light effects on players are juxstaposing) which are not that important. I understand why some people say nadeo is shooting on his feets. They got the best idea for an esport shooter title, got a hell of a good community (look at this forum, the count of mods available, the works from players on the game), and deceived them (not all of them, but a LOT).

There is not only bad things in nadeos updates. For fun royal games, plenty of new blocks were available with every update, but those were just not usable for elite and competition.

Dont get me wrong, i ***ing loved this game and put a hell of a time in it. But i get nothing in return. Not even fun anymore.

And i dont know why i am writing this, cause every time a message is posted, nothing is done. So even more waisted time. But man, hope is controlling me.

platernitycs
Posts: 39
Joined: 10 Feb 2013, 18:56

Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by platernitycs » 16 Aug 2013, 11:13

andrewcandoall wrote:Munglo you don't understand our logic. The tri laser prevents the game from being to easy for the attacker. Without it the game would be to much in favor of the attacker. Imagine doing pixel shots in The Castle 2. You could stay back and kill atleast 2 defenders from the opposite end of the map. Also a lot of cover would be useless because head shots would be to easy. This would Ruin the upper spot in iron fist for example. The game would be way too campy.

The 1/3 probability per dot is interesting though.
However the current system is fine.
Tri dot rule MAKES the game campy. If you can kill someone on this upper spot in iron fist, than no defender will camp there, he'll play creative, trying to get behind the attacker and getting the advantage! (Close range is advantage for rockets and long range for rail! but in this game there is not long range rail!)

Alexey85
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Jul 2012, 10:54

Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by Alexey85 » 16 Aug 2013, 11:47

platernitycs wrote:[...]Tri dot rule MAKES the game campy. If you can kill someone on this upper spot in iron fist, than no defender will camp there, [...]
So he will camp elsewhere, or
platernitycs wrote: [...]he'll play creative, trying to get behind the attacker and getting the advantage![...]
and players already doing this, with this defender might get close to attacker enough to have advantage, or he might end up being too far, but also far enough so that attacker would have difficutly hitting him because of tri-laser. So with single dot laser it will become even more risky not to camp, in my opinion.

Alexey85
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Jul 2012, 10:54

Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by Alexey85 » 16 Aug 2013, 11:54

platernitycs wrote:[...]It is the same as a normal railgun at close range (so more skill not needed) until the ennemy target is smaller as the 3 dots area, and it becomes impossible to hit (so skill will not help you here). Fact is, with 3 dot system you still have to do the EXACT same job as in any other game: targeting the ennemy on the center of your crosshair. Only change is that you cant do it on a certain distance (and it still can hit what is against the logic of 3dot-rule).[...]
It is not the same as one dot laser. With tri-laser in close distance if you aim so that center of you aim is at the hitbox of opponent but one dot is off the hitbox, you will not get the hit with this. With single dot laser you would get hit with the same position. So tri-laser not only makes impossible to hit at far distances, it also makes more difficult to hit at any distance.

platernitycs
Posts: 39
Joined: 10 Feb 2013, 18:56

Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by platernitycs » 16 Aug 2013, 12:10

No it just reduce the hitbox if you think about it.

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plopp
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by plopp » 16 Aug 2013, 12:36

Since the elite gamemode is a One hit super weapon (even more so in beta 3 because of fast reload) versus three hit slow rocket, camping is bound to happen. The thing that the trilaser does is that it rewards camping partly hidden at longer distances (read spawn position on ironfist). Because it's close to impossible to hit at these distances the defender can stand there and spam for a good while until the attacker is closer. If there was to be a one dot laser there would be a higher probability to get killed when being partly hidden. And since there is a higher chance to get killed there the defender is more encouraged to take the fight a bit closer.


Imho it's not the laser mechanic that forces camping. It's the gamemode itself and the maps.

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plopp
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Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by plopp » 16 Aug 2013, 12:44

I also have a crazy idea (which may or may not have been written before). If you really have to have a tri dot laser you could make the defenders have 3 armors each. Even if only 1 dot is on the hitbox the laser will hit but it'll only take away 1 armor. Then 2 armors for 2 dots and instakill with 3 dots. What this does is that you will not feel as cheated by the trilaser.

platernitycs
Posts: 39
Joined: 10 Feb 2013, 18:56

Re: Trilaser - Needs some serious work

Post by platernitycs » 16 Aug 2013, 13:03

And what if he is exactly in the center of your cross but is so far away that no dot touches the hitbox ? :)

edit: for nadeo, it was your main slogan at the beginning: stay simple! 3dots is anything but simple!

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