critism = lock thread?

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novationx
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critism = lock thread?

Post by novationx » 19 Aug 2013, 11:11

Hi,

Somehow when a thread gets heated ( actually not heated at all ) the topic gets locked.
Might as well lock the forums then.

I make mistakes everyday and some I admit , some I dont admit because its not easy.
NADEO, maybe ur the same like me? Maybe you should respond to those heated threads with "okay we understand ur frustration and maybe ur right." & then work on a solution.
( PLEASE DONT QUOTE ME WITH THIS. OBVIOUSLY NOT ALL RAGERS ARE RIGHT. )


I can guarantee that all 'so called ragers' care a lot about the game and are only trying to help. And I bet all those ragers started out nicely and polite. If they didnt care they wouldnt be posting here.

Btw you shouldnt really respond to ragers in the first place. I hope you guys read these threads and for every topic regarding a game-element you should create a list with the numbers of opinions.
People that like the game-element and people that dont like the game-element.
Just put the ragers in the "people that dont like that game-element" list and dont give them any attention and moderate if necessary. Then look at the numbers and decide to keep that game-element or not. EZ?

Why is it so hard to maybe, after alllllll these complaints, to maybe consider different solutions regarding B2, ESWC maps, laser etc etc...
I read that someone asked to test elite with single-dot-laser. Just a test and then gather the feedback.

GabrielM
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Re: critism = lock thread?

Post by GabrielM » 19 Aug 2013, 12:03

I actually don't know why the thread about tri-laser is locked, though you are right when you say we have to be able to take complaints an criticisms. And the people here at nadeo do take criticisms. Do not mistake "answering and explaining stuffs" with "defending positions and not caring about criticisms".
Nothing can be done about those points until september as half of the workers from nadeo are enjoying their summer holidays, including Hylis. While nothing can be done, we can still talk about it, that's why we answer posts by something else than "Ok, we'll do that." because we can't say that, as we are not in charge of those matters.
With that you can keep on reacting and posting, making the criticisms more rich, acurate and interestings for the concerned people when they'll be back.
Understand that's not in any form denial.

Regarding heating thread or posts, when people like sadzealot cry out and put big scary words like "CENSORSHIP" because one of his post fully dedicated to call me a "little bitch", full of many other curse words like he always uses on this forum, was harshly moderated, this is beyond ridiculous. He already got banned one week for those kind of behaviors, and still doesn't get it. Those kind of reactions are what "heat" the discussions and are far from being useful. If someone wants to express something about the game he does not need to get personal and/or rude with anyone.
Those kind of messages i won't answer anymore, as useless as it proved to be :| .

Anyway, for those who really mean to help the game like you, sorry if you are caught in the middle of this trolling.
We can now go back to discussing subject game-related, and wait for something to be done by the concerned people when they'll be back :thumbsup: .

sadzealot
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Re: critism = lock thread?

Post by sadzealot » 19 Aug 2013, 18:48

First of all, I didn't dedicate my post to calling you a little bitch. In fact, I never called you a little bitch if I remember correctly. I sad you cried like one in your post. (there's a HUGE difference)

I also went on to explain why you had no rights to do so and went ahead and criticized other aspects of behaviour of Nadeo and development in general. I did so by explaining why I thought so and so.

But keep on lying about what I said after you censored it to make it look like you have the moral highground. More and more people are leaving Shootmania each day because of the way you're taking the game and when people who care about the game criticize aspects of it in frustration all they get in return is "We wanna move forward with the game with people who want it to succeed".

And that's where you fail. People want it to succeed, that's why they voice their frustration and anger about the direction you're taking the game in.

And this is what you don't get time and time again. You just shrug it off and go "nah, just people who are hating on the game"

We love the game, but we're hating on the direction it's going. There's a huge difference. If people didn't want it to succeed they wouldn't be on this forums writing longass posts about what they see as bad decisions.

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TMarc
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Re: critism = lock thread?

Post by TMarc » 19 Aug 2013, 19:01

Still it is not a reason to use bad words, and to to use figurative comparisons that can be easily misunderstood by people not familiar with your very colorful slang.

I was not able to see the content that was deleted of your post.
Perhaps you really only wrote something like "bitching around", but this is also not a very nice saying.

Such kind of tone was not usage in the TrackMania community, and this is why the "old guys" and the developers are very surprised and also embarassed a lot to see such open hatress (even if it is only misunderstanding), which is absolutely unnecessary.
Perhaps we need eyebo and Rookfells advice here, as they are perhaps more used to some of your language ;)

Please never forget this is a game, and games are there for fun and to distract.
The only allowed fights are ingame, not with words, only with skill and the weapons.

You write that you want to bring things forward, but it won't help much if every post is taken wrong - this is valid for everyone ;)
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plopp
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Re: critism = lock thread?

Post by plopp » 19 Aug 2013, 23:29

TMarc wrote:Please never forget this is a game, and games are there for fun and to distract.
The only allowed fights are ingame, not with words, only with skill and the weapons.
So a fight in shootmania will settle this? :) I'd like to see an elite match with the developer team vs. shootmania pros. The winner decides how the game should be ;)

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plopp
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Re: critism = lock thread?

Post by plopp » 19 Aug 2013, 23:45

GabrielM wrote:Anyway, for those who really mean to help the game like you, sorry if you are caught in the middle of this trolling. We can now go back to discussing subject game-related, and wait for something to be done by the concerned people when they'll be back :thumbsup: .
This sounds good and all in theory. But from what i've gathered from time on the forum (which isn't that long) everyone with a different opinion gets treated the same way. I mean I would get why sadzealot gets called a hater because of his swearing but he raises some good points. Then when another person raises the same points without the swearing he gets called a hater as well. People with different opinions should be treated with the same respect.

Now it's like:

A guy that likes beta 2: "I think the beta 2 walljumps are better because there is so much more depth. You can do so many different walljumps with it."
Nadeo: "You're a hater. Please don't hate and give good arguments. We need to move forward :insertmeme:"

A guy that likes beta 3: "Beta 3 rulez!"
Nadeo: "+1. This guy knows what he's talking about!"

(inb4 getting called a hater :))

GabrielM
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Re: critism = lock thread?

Post by GabrielM » 20 Aug 2013, 00:32

plopp wrote: A guy that likes beta 2: "I think the beta 2 walljumps are better because there is so much more depth. You can do so many different walljumps with it."
Nadeo: "You're a hater. Please don't hate and give good arguments. We need to move forward :insertmeme:"

A guy that likes beta 3: "Beta 3 rulez!"
Nadeo: "+1. This guy knows what he's talking about!"
Well i get what you're saying but it's a misunderstanding, and a false shortcut (with all due respect)
This kind of response always went to the people saying over and over "bring back b2 walljumps, b3 wj sucks, how stupid can you be to not have it already done by now ?" or those kinds of stuffs.

All we've done was explaining some technical difficulties, positives aspect of wj b3 in the long term, etc etc.. We can't do anything else since people are on holidays. It's not denying the fact you miss some tricks of b2, or rewarding/fun/exciting feelings. That's what's important actually.

All we can all do now is keep discussing about it, and if something is done or not you'll be the first to know/notice.

To sum up :
Some of you want's b3 wj improved because :
- they feel too limited.
- makes it a bit to easy to master all the depth in it.
- you can suggest something else that i forgot to mention and we'll probably be good on discussing that subject, until something's done :thumbsup:.

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eyebo
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Re: critism = lock thread?

Post by eyebo » 20 Aug 2013, 00:56

TMarc wrote:Such kind of tone was not usage in the TrackMania community, and this is why the "old guys" and the developers are very surprised and also embarassed a lot to see such open hatress (even if it is only misunderstanding), which is absolutely unnecessary.
Not entirely true. I remember some times that TrackMania players have also thrown some pretty nasty insults towards each other and towards the devs, much to my chagrin. Generally everyone is nice in TM, but generally there's nothing really to get too worked up about. I really don't think the players of TM are really any nicer than those in SM. And to be honest, many players are the same in that they play both games.

I'm sure we can all agree that people have really strong opinions when they care about something deeply. Sometimes we let our own beliefs about the direction things should be going get in the way of good manners. But that doesn't change the fact that each of us has a valid opinion.

What's that old idiom? "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Basically, if you want to convince people of something, show respect and dignity to the other person. Use persuasive arguments and be nice about it. This is in everyone's best interests, and you'll get further by taking that route.
TMarc wrote:Perhaps we need eyebo and Rookfells advice here, as they are perhaps more used to some of your language ;)
I read the ShootMania forums a lot but I don't comment here much because I don't play SM often, and when I do it's not very seriously. I can't really debate about tri-laser or whether the eswc map pool is good or not, so I generally keep quiet about such things and let those who have a strong interest in those details express their positions.

I think what people have to realize is that the developers are reading their posts, and even if they don't get a direct reply or an immediate response about something... they shouldn't lose heart.

Something else to keep in mind. Just because someone from Nadeo replies to your post, it doesn't mean that person is in a position to implement the suggested change or has the authority to do something about it. Some from Nadeo comment so as to lend some balance to a discussion. I read their posts with interest since they have a unique perspective of the game. They sort of see it from the inside out, whereas we're seeing it more from the outside in.

There are things I've wanted changed in TrackMania. It almost always takes longer than I'd like, but if it's something that Hylis decides will benefit players, and they have the time to do it, then it usually ends up happening.

Patience is hard, and when you think the current state of things is having a direct influence on whether players continue playing or whether they're moving to other games... it's easy to get very loud about your opinions. But Rome wasn't built in a day. Nadeo is doing their best to build great games, not only for current ManiaPlanet gamers, but also future ones who arrive.

Listening to feedback is of course important. It's a part of the process. But it's not the only part, and there is often more to consider than what each of us individually can see from our standpoint.

If you look back at the list of changes to ManiaPlanet over the past two years, I think you'd be surprised at the number of things changed, added, or removed at the collective request of the community. The list is huge, and Nadeo continues to ask for our feedback and priorities via the wishlist topics.

Regarding the deletion/censorship of posts. It's totally to be expected. Any good forum is moderated. When discussions are no longer making headway and start going round and round in circles, that's a good sign to lock it. I think we're actually quite lenient about that here. When people start getting nasty and making personal attacks, posts get deleted or edited. When people directly derail a topic, we either delete the post or split it into it's own topic. If we didn't do these things, then we would be remiss in our duties and the forum would fall into chaos. Of course there's always room for improvement, but we all try our best. Our goal is not to silence users but to keep order in the forums so that it's an enjoyable place for people to find information and engage in discussions with others.

Keep in mind that the moderators (red and blue names) here are not paid. We're all volunteers. Even the guys in orange, who sometimes lend a hand moderating, are not paid to moderate. They're paid for developing the game. Some even engage with the community in their off time. Why? Because they care that much about us and about the future of the game. I don't want to ever take that for granted.

One last thing. For future reference, when you post to the forums, keep in mind the forum rules and the ManiaPlanetarians Charter. :)

Most of all, have fun and don't forget to keep some perspective! :thumbsup:
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plopp
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Re: critism = lock thread?

Post by plopp » 20 Aug 2013, 02:28

GabrielM wrote:Well i get what you're saying but it's a misunderstanding, and a false shortcut (with all due respect)
This kind of response always went to the people saying over and over "bring back b2 walljumps, b3 wj sucks, how stupid can you be to not have it already done by now ?" or those kinds of stuffs.
I think you misunderstood my intension :) "Exactly" this response is given to people that only say that "game suck, pliz fix". I just exaggerated to make a point. But the fact is that pro-b2 opinions are not treated with the same respect as pro-b3 opinions by most Nadeo employees because they are pro-b3 themselves. The same respect is needed for a healthy discussion, otherwise people will just debate in circles.

MuNgLo
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Re: critism = lock thread?

Post by MuNgLo » 20 Aug 2013, 04:00

GabrielM wrote:It's not denying the fact you miss some tricks of b2, or rewarding/fun/exciting feelings. That's what's important actually.
Hylis has said it isnt as flexible. you are the first from Nadeo that say it is even important. Just let that sink in a bit. For all the B2/B3 points been made there has been absolutely zero responses like this. It has only been about how bad b2 was bugged and moving forward and so on. Not a single has been given about addressing the points about gameplay, fun and challenge.
In fact from what changes has been made and from what Hylis has expressed it is fairly clear that challenging gameplay is bad and coremechanics like wj is a real low priority. He said it might get dev time in novemeber. That's ridiculous for a core mechanic that devs themselves deem as not as fun/flexible/useful and been in the game for almost a year.

Now if you could get some people with you over there that gameplay actually is most important we might actually get to see a game that's fun again in a year or so.

Lets end on a nice quote from winz from 6 oct last year ESReality
winz wrote:Bottom line is, the devs have no clue about what they are doing. They are not listening to people who actually do and I wouldn't expect that to change in the future. They will keep on adding racing game features (platforms giving temporary bonuses, countdown and soon checkpoints lol.) on that FPS and say it makes the game 'deep'.
They had a chance, a big opportunity and they completely blew it.

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