[MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

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Soprah
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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by Soprah » 07 Nov 2013, 18:10

novationx wrote:I said 10x in a post to not feel offended.
Your way how you are writing does.

Nobody likes to read ''I can do it better than you''. How would you feel when someone says to you that he can do something better? Your tone isn't formal.

Give constructive feedback and don't mix your feedback with exasperated emotions.

Even if you raised some good points and some people agree ( including me on some aspects ) with your opinion, your tone impairs your discussion.

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meuh21
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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by meuh21 » 07 Nov 2013, 18:27

+1
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Omnixor
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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by Omnixor » 07 Nov 2013, 18:28

again talks about the way someone said smth. why is it necessary? it's offtopic.
- staff head of ESL TM²Stadium -

novationx
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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by novationx » 07 Nov 2013, 20:47

Omnixor wrote:again talks about the way someone said smth. why is it necessary? it's offtopic.
ty.

All my valid points are ignored.
The neverending waiting game has to stop.

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TMarc
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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by TMarc » 07 Nov 2013, 21:18

They are not. Please do not be upset and also please do not take wrong assumptions only because the thread unfortunately went off topic.

That you don't get precise feedback from the developpers to each of your single points does not mean they don't read it.
Hylis already has answered with time and constraints. Obviously he can't say to much, not to reveal spectacular things they have in preparation, and also not to promise things they can't fulfill at all. He certainly would like to tell more, but also for such revelations there are constraints.

You wrote yourself time is not the question.
Now if that means that you are according Nadeo to take the time they need to make it good, then you also have to accept which decisions they take - on the way until it is really finished the way they (and also hopefully like we) want to have it.

They know pretty much themselves that some or perhaps many things are not ideal at the moment.
The problem is that you showed too many points and that they can be overlooked easily between the overmotivated writing some considered as raunts.

I like your code fixing requests btw., very straight forward :thumbsup:

But it would be much wiser and much easier to read if you separate your findings and ideas to individual threads, this would help to discuss them more in details.
Please also do not forget to place your direct change requests as summary list to the whishlist thread.
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UrinStein
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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by UrinStein » 07 Nov 2013, 22:34

Hylis wrote:You are missing the point as well UrinStein.

If we would have a debate, integrating all the aspects into it, maybe you would have a different understanding and oppinion, but that's an ambitious saying that you would make a better call yourself, even without the knowledge and experience we have. Here, you are mainly judging, and it's not interesting.

It should not prevent you to say what you like/dislike and woud like. But this attitude of judging, instead of sharing, prevents me to discuss the points with you. As simple as that.
If me and Nova are missing the point, then Hylis apparently has the power to change the topic of a forum thread.

I am NOT judging. I am sharing the experiences I have made with the custom Title system so far.
IT IS A KNOWN FACT that custom Titles are WORTHLESS as they are atm.

You intruduced features like Objects, but in exchange you FORCE us to make use of Title Packs.
Hence some people have already created some Titles, some have built maps for those and others have been on Title servers to try to get matches started. Those people are commited and creative, putting a lot of effort into this.
But in the end all the time spent for those "features" was for nothing.

The very same people now complain about it and tell you how they feel about this nuisance, and you basically tell them to shut up and wait until it gets better.
Stop treating Nova like an asshole when he tells you why people are unhappy. That's why I commented on you.

You want us to be more constructive than that? I can understand that.
But duuuuuuude, it has been said hundreds of times already: "Show Title servers in the Storm server list, even if the Title is not installed"
Yet I have never seen a comment by a developer on that. I interpret that as a "no".
In that case there is nothing else to say than: "I don't want Titles at all."


And that's more or less what this thread is about:
novationx wrote:Mostly obvious things that arent even worth discussing about [...] and are just so logical.
It basically annoys me that they havent changed these things already!
I often dont understand the way NADEO thinks, because I would do so much things differently eventho I know making a game is extremely hard.
novationx wrote:But, if I was in control, I would have made sure that we have a good BASIS to start. That players are happy with what they get NOW ( and not in 2years ) and only add néw things when the BASIS is good. (The entire manialink system is , imo, bad for the community.) Doing things like this isnt ignoring the greater goal or the long-term plan. Its simply improving it, Hylis
Every now and then you present us new features that "are soo great", but even some huge "features" like Title Packs are absolutely worthless and a waste of time for everyone.
We as players often would prefer a handful of meaningful and well working things than a bunch of senseless ones.
That's all he says. He even has a list of main examples to show what exactly the problem is we have.


This thread again is a prime example of the miscommunication going on between players and you [Hylis/Nadeo].
People express their incomprehension about a topic and you decide and tell them if their point is valid or not (in the second case you often treat them like assholes, but let's not discuss that right now >.>).
Rarely anyone reading that topic will in the end have a better understanding of why things are like they are and how you plan to make them better.

The Title pack situation, for me, is the best example...


Anyway, I am quite sure that I DID NOT miss the point, and please stop treating me like shit when I make a point, even if you don't like it.
I know noone is here to offend anyone, but you don't seem to now that.
Actually I feel offended by you.

Offtopic:
I feel like that's a common thing with the most competent persons. They sometimes think that they know everything and other people are only talking bullshit.
Sometimes they need to get back on the ground and actually listen about what other people think, even if they may not have the same skills and insights.
kadaz wrote:> That's where I disagree, cause the truth is, the truth is, weather you agree to disagree or not with liking it.
> I know I speak intelligent English

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meuh21
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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by meuh21 » 07 Nov 2013, 23:55

Omnixor wrote:again talks about the way someone said smth. why is it necessary? it's offtopic.
Maybe offtopic but "in forum" ;) Respect is important in the forum and in this community. We are in the community forum and it is important to "talk well". You can say the same things but without agressivity
UrinStein wrote:I am NOT judging. I am sharing the experiences I have made with the custom Title system so far.
IT IS A KNOWN FACT that custom Titles are WORTHLESS as they are atm.
You're judging. It's not a fact ! I am very happy with titles. I'm not alone i think people who created Stunt or Trial Titles are happy to make it. You mix popularity and the creation pleasure. That's 2 different things. For example you can be happy to build a map even if this map is not popular, not played on servers. It is the same when you create a model, a video, a skin, a mod, objects, etc. I'm happy to make a title with my stuff. If only a few friends play it, it's fine. If many people play it's also fine and i could be proud of that if they like it. But it's not the most important and it's not the source of my motivation.
UrinStein wrote:Every now and then you present us new features that "are soo great", but even some huge "features" like Title Packs are absolutely worthless and a waste of time for everyone.
We as players often would prefer a handful of meaningful and well working things than a bunch of senseless ones.
That's all he says. He even has a list of main examples to show what exactly the problem is we have.
Who is we ? You and your friend are not the community. Don't forget the creative community and title pack creators also.

Maniaplanet can and will be improve. But it is always easy to criticize. Would be better if you think : "what can I do to help Nadeo and the community". And the first thing everybody can do is to create a good atmosphere. In this topic, in the forum, "off this topic" and in the game.

This is only my opinion from the place where i am as a TM player and creator. Of course you can have a different point of view. But you and I, we don't have the truth. I know that but when i read your post i think you don't :?
Last edited by meuh21 on 08 Nov 2013, 00:07, edited 2 times in total.
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serujio
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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by serujio » 07 Nov 2013, 23:58

I wished transparent opponents for TM and they did it in a week

envy me

:gotcha:

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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by UrinStein » 08 Nov 2013, 00:22

@meuh

I rarely play TM², when I talk about the experiences I've made in Maniaplanet, I made most of them in Shootmania.
The situation in those two games is very different, you know.

When in TrackMania I built a map (I played a lot of TMN Forever), I showed it to 5 people and I was happy. Still today I can play my maps myself and be happy with them. With Title Packs it probably is the same. In the end, in Trackmania you play by yourself and the nyou can compare records. That's basically it even when playing live on a server, everyone drives for himself and in the end the times achieved are compared.

But in Shootmania, where the concept of gamemodes is a much more important one, you cannot play by yourself!
You need other people to play! At least 6! There is almost no gamemode which is any fun with less than 6 people.
Now THIS is where popularity becomes a major part of the problem we are facing in Shootmania. If noone can see that your gamemode exists, how are you going to play it? Some gamemodes won't even START before the right amount of people is there.
How am I going to play a match on a map I built, ALL ALONE?

meuh21 wrote:Who is we ? You and your friend are not the community. Don't forget the creative community and title pack creators also.

Maniaplanet can and will be improve. But it is always easy to criticize. Would be better if you think : "what can I do to help Nadeo and the community". And the first thing everybody can do is to create a good atmosphere. In this topic, in the forum, "off this topic" and in the game.
Since we are in the SHOOTMANIA-Forum, "we" is the Shootmania community. So please don't bother me with Trackmania.

I personally like to think of myself as part of the "creative community" having built several maps, payed a lot of money for servers and organised a cup for (you got it) a Title Pack Gamemode with Team Devota.
I've tried my fucking best to get that thing rolling, but everyone that has actually thought about how Title Packs work in Shootmania right now, say that they suck.
In Shootmania they suck and there's no way around it.

So please if you don't even play Shootmania, think before you write something into its forum.
Sometimes I forget a TM's player point of view too, but no need for that in this forum.


Also, as I already said, the people complainig in the forums are people that have already tried their best but it was no use because of Maniaplanet. Don't make us look like idiots because you haven't made the same experiences. We have valid points.
Some of us may get quite negative about some topics here, because we would really like Maniaplanet to be a great place for gamers. But these are only programs, we are not insulting anyone.
When you tell me I am not part of the creative community and I just haven't tried enough then I'll take that personally.
kadaz wrote:> That's where I disagree, cause the truth is, the truth is, weather you agree to disagree or not with liking it.
> I know I speak intelligent English

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Re: [MUST READ] Easy fixes, basics missing & main problems

Post by novationx » 08 Nov 2013, 00:47

I simply gave my opinion on the most important aspects/flaws of the game I love the most & play everyday.
Does this make me rude? I dont think so. :oops:

Hylis:
"give me constructive critism"
The entire first post is more construtive critisim than 50other threads combined. You can be happy to have me on the forums. :thumbsup: My post wasnt even rude to begin with. My posts are never rude. In fact all my posts are too help. Check my history. Im always the first to mention a bug, ask for info & offer solutions.

Why cant you just reply like a normal person would and actually address the issues I present :?: :?:
Talk about the "MOTIVATION" , Give us a clear answer why these simple fixes arent done yet...
Why titlepacks were designed like they are now & not like I suggested? What was the original plan with the titles...?
So we understand better... Everybody would benefit from this answer.

Why didnt you say "Novationx that actually is a good suggestion, we really should do smth about the motivation-factor etc etc, but for now we are doing it like this because..."
But no, we never get a straight answer!!

Only stuff from NADEO like this :
"Yes but in the future this & this , and no time now. You dont know what we are doing. Dont tell me to do my job... It costs money... MP3.0" " Long term goals, short-term blabla, constraint bla bla''
=All vague stuff/excuses telling us nothing.... Just admit that some stuff shoulld be done/planned better , get over it & lets make maniaplanet better!! Together!!

Hylis
I am defending since years that long term motivation to play is crucial, but like I am saying, it's a really complex approach in many, many ways.
Years? The only thing we have is a half-working LP-system? Why cant I complain about this and call it bad?


I didnt offend you or anyone at NADEO. I tried to help. I was polite.
If anyone was offended then it was me, by Hylis. You are too blind to see my constructive critisim and take everything personal and go into "defend mode" which offends me.

Hylis:
The day some players here will understand that they are not here to give lessons, but constructively and positively express their frustrations, desires & wishes, it will be better, and more cool, really.
I did not deserve this & this offended me. The day you would actually listen to the community instead of pretending you do , would be better, and more cool, really.

Its not cuz you got the CEO title on your office door, that you're always right. ;)

For the last time: Open your eyes & ears, read my first post again and actually make this "bad" game better before its too late. Time isnt the problem. The approach is the problem. (explained in post 1)


PS : Before you make a reply Hylis, scroll back up and see how much people agree with me & say/think the same about you. Is this coincidence? I dont think so. You are a stubborn smart man that likes gaming. But still a man, that like everyone else can make mistakes.


Wabbit
My first impression of this post "ZOMG I totally aggree with you"
I Totally Agree with everything novationx has said
plopp
Those are very good points. :)
Zechs
A lot of good points.I think the title system should be dispensed with. It'd be easier for players if there was a server browser with a simple drop-down menu of available gametypes!
viperozza
I really hope that NADEO will read and use this topic to improve the game for real, we dont need new features. We just need to fix big and small things (user interface, user experience and gameplay) in the actual game version.
Rots ( my favourite )
I'd like "rep points" or "thanks" button on the forum to click on this kind of posts. Good post... lets see if somebody reacts.
sadzealot
I have to agree with Nova here Hylis, your post is basically one giant defence for why certain things haven't been done, but this thread is not about what haven't been done, but how you guys approach certain things to begin with.

gaertner
Sorry but having a system broken for the next two years untill it eventually makes sense with your secret "globabl approach", "future goals" and "reasons" might not be the best way ...
(for example the ladder system)
weerwolf
Nadeo's games are about creating stuff. Anywhere from making servers, skins to nowadays complete gamemodes. This is the power of Nadeo and yes also its problem.I do think some things could have been changed in a shorter timeframe. This on the point of bugs in game, and in second point polishing the menus.
urinstein
I agree with nova when he says that the Title system is useless and not him stating that fact.
Most of us would have prefered not to have it from the beginning and maybe getting it when it is actually of use.
Omnixor
and again, when someone says one bad word, you instantly refuse to communicate with him Hylis. maybe you're missing the point?
again talks about the way someone said smth. why is it necessary? it's offtopic
Soprah
Even if you raised some good points and some people agree ( including me on some aspects ) with your opinion, your tone impairs your discussion.
And so much more.
The neverending waiting game has to stop.

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