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Re: ESWC Maps

Posted: 18 Sep 2014, 23:09
by Livert
UrinStein wrote:
Livert wrote:(consider it as a plan B).
pksens wrote:Why the insistence on PaperCut?
Maybe, no matter if the map stays in the pool or not, he insists on working on his map, as long as he gets feedback? Isn't that part of what makes a good mapper?
Thanks dude that´s what I thought too^^ But apparently I was somehow misunderstood...

I´ll try to make it more clear to you...

Basically you guys have 2 options now:

Option A: Talk to the authorities who decide about the mappool, convince them of removing the maps which you don´t like and make some suggestions for replacements.

Option B: Help the mappers of the currently chosen maps to improve them.

If you can make Option A happen then I´m happy for you because I agree that Papercut in its current version isn´t any fun in a competitive match. BUT I think that you won´t be able to make Option A happen (just my oppinion).

That´s why I wanted to give you that second option...

If you would rather just try to make Option A work without a backup plan, then I guess I´m sorry for offering my help here...

Re: ESWC Maps

Posted: 18 Sep 2014, 23:46
by pksens
See I don't mind maps being updated or fixed - this is something Bervt was attempting with the previous map list and had some mixed results (mostly positive small changes on various maps we see now). That kind of change is okay, but for Papercut you are looking at drastic change - almost an entire map redesign. Removing over 50% of it, adjusting the area around pole, I don't know. To me it's a bit of a gamble again.

The kind of changes I'd welcome would be small things on other maps:
- moving the wooden pillar forward a bit (so this player can ping more around bunker)
- adding a pillar near the base of mountain - so if the player drops he has a spot he can rotate to first
- adding a small block near far right arch so a defender can reach this area safely if the attacker rushes into base
- removing 50% of the starting area
- and or either relocate pole to a spot further forward
- add 1 defensive spot further from pole, giving options to play safely away from pole
- reduce size of cage next to pole
- remove some of the junk blocks
- needs more :f
Option B can be there as well, as you said, as a back up plan =)

Re: ESWC Maps

Posted: 19 Sep 2014, 01:18
by Livert
well thanks for the feedback^^
pksens wrote:- removing 50% of the starting area
pksens wrote:- reduce size of cage next to pole
How am I supposed to do that? There are no smaller cages... (at least none which aren´t cornered)

I tried to make some changes around the pole basically to give the attacker a little more opportunities but I don´t really know if that´s a good way to go...

I agree to you... Changes are only worth it if they are only details and the map itself is already quite good. Sadly we might not have another choice here but to deal with this situation ...

Re: ESWC Maps

Posted: 22 Sep 2014, 16:16
by Livert
so how is working on Plan A going?

Re: ESWC Maps

Posted: 23 Sep 2014, 12:54
by pksens
I could tell you that 9 out of 10 teams I asked don't like PaperCut and nearly as many would be in favour of changing another map to improve the map list, but the admins (Sylvain) appears to not want to do anything. He does allow the update right? But I have no feedback from him to suggest he'll welcome to change it.

Example list of quotes:

FM : "PaperCut should be removed, Battlefield should also be removed but it doesn't matter that much" "Calypso can be modified"
Cplay: "Against PaperCut, agree to modify calypso, Battle is not good"
Elysium: "remove all 3 maps (wait after FR Qualifier)
aAa (stated above): "I wouldn't mind if those maps get replaced by some old popular ones"
MistraL (Karemz above): "The 2 maps replacement seems to be a decent suggestion, especially when we know they're gonna get banned. "
Subliminal: "calypso is not so bad, but the others 2 are bad, & unplayable" "we should have a grass map"
Awsomniac: "papercut is shit, battlefield is big but feels not too much options to defend, calypso is ok imo - last years ESWC maps were 10x better"

Re: ESWC Maps

Posted: 23 Sep 2014, 13:03
by pksens
And indeed if there was going to be change, the FR qualifier still has to be played with the current list. After this, we have the chance to really come together and if we all put in the same request (ie all the qualified teams) then maybe Option A will work. But I imagine option B is more possible.

Regarding that, on Breach you can fly off the top of the blue starting pads (all 3 lanes) and with 2 you can get to the pole in quite incredible speed, or to the top of the map with another one if you land fast. Now some tactics might be invalid with such a style (players around pillars/pole/wall area), but I do like the speed options you can take as it's a bit of extra fun. I'd think more people would agree to let it stay but it does mean you can't do anything too fancy regarding defence (ie reacting to which side of the map he will start, having your set up ready for that).

Re: ESWC Maps

Posted: 23 Sep 2014, 23:13
by Livert
Well then... Sounds like you can´t do anything else but wait right now, right? Could in the meanwhile someone have a look at the changes which I made on Papercut just in case your all-together-request doesn´t work?

I didn´t have a real opportunity to test them yet so I don´t have any guarantee that things work the way they are supposed to do... I don´t even know if the changes make it better playable for you guys or even worse^^"

thanks for your time

Re: ESWC Maps

Posted: 01 Oct 2014, 00:18
by pksens
Thanks for the changes on making the map smaller!

But I wish some of us had tested it first. You did change a few many things which means we have a few more problems.
I thought you were going to halve the map so it would take a reasonable time to get to defence area (8+ seconds?) whilst keeping the defence area relatively untouched.

Shorter distance to pole
Depends on your POV some people might like that new cage for defence (it's very simple now), for me it's too simple but whatever. Maybe others disagree.
Attacker spawn is VERY close (reach attacker base in 6 seconds)
View right area on 4 to deny access to typical tree spots
Maybe new cage (my pov!)
Main cage still (again powerful defence spot near pole)
Added Portal - such a strength to get up high so easily now imo. Plus the red pads beside it.

I'm not sure if others agree but for me it still needs some work, considering you did a lot of potential things to the map without having it being tested properly. When Bervt made the maps he at least talked to people (skyped, ts, getting us on server at same time etc), and took opinions from various people. Is there still room to change the map again? I know it's another ask for ESWC but essentially this is an untested map that's been renovated to another untested map and we still have the problems.