you are not able to see your fault ...

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TMarc
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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by TMarc » 17 Jun 2015, 18:33

Smigles wrote:
TMarc wrote: 3. It is also the community who has to do something, by creating new content, and not only to complain and cry that there is always nothing new.
The community has been carrying Nadeos games for over a decade. You would never have released TMS if it wasn't for the HUGE WORK that the community has done since TMO release. Same is true for every version after TMS. All you released are some engines and texture packs. 99.9999% of content has always been created by the community.

Statements like yours show how alienated you guys are from your player base.
What is wrong with this statement!?
Just to make ìt clear, everywhere you wrote "You" in your post, you were speaking of Nadeo, because you forgot that I'm not part of them.

Please don't mix your apparent hate towards them and what they're doing, when you're quoting my personal opinion, which is certainly not alienated, but furthermore a well founded experience and observation of what happens since years in this forum and also outside in *-Exchanges, ManiaPark, etc.

I'm myself only a player like you and all the others here, and I'm for sure also not satisfied and always happy with the things Nadeo does.
But while you and a few others are perhaps a exception - using community created content, there are many people who only claim for a "finished" game where nothing changes.
Et voilà, with TMT they finally have it.
Strange that so many people again complain... But to be never satisfied, this is normally typical for Engineers, who always try to find the best solution.
But this endless sayings like "Nadeo does not this right, Nadeo does not this right", is very annoying and also not the truth.

Really, I don't understand "you guys" here. :roll:
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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by BLaHiTiS » 17 Jun 2015, 19:08

"99.99999999% of the work has been done by the community...."

I am of the community and I don't want to sound harsh but do you know how disrespectful that sounds towards developers ? I was there when trackmania started in november 2003,

We played the game, and we were playing, immediately doing tournaments and then, guys like BaKa came allong teaching us how to do tactical short tracks, and then, environment specific leagues were created also. We had the powerup expansion from Nadeo that added tunnels (I still feel the excitement from the first screenshots), and signage.

This is a natural way of a community that plays the game, remains enthousiastic about it and find new ways to play it. I was totally addicted to these LOL tracks by Ariakan. I think I even made a zip and put them on the TM wiki.

Naturally evolving, there were press forward tracks and the likes. Everyone gave feedback that mattered to the game, and I remember that lan party in 2004 where TMS was announced, there was nothing but enthousiasm.

You got to realize that Nadeo started adopting community mods piece by piece. The original TM (not TMO) was limited in modding, but since sunrise we could start modifying our own signage and create videos to run in billboards, in TMO, total graphics replacements were possible and were added to the P2p scheme. A server could host the moonbase mod for desert and clients could download it while playing.

This was a slow process which didn't just come overnight. In the original TM , you had to change all that manually, I don't remember correctly but the only mod stuff that started working over p2p was car skins and horns, and this was even after Powerup I believe.

So the community wanted to do something and Nadeo went out of their way to provide the tools. So it's not fair to come here now and say that the community did 99.9% of the work. We as community had the luck to work with an enthousiastic team that wanted to adopt our needs for THEIR game. And this is something that needs to be learned, it's still THEIR product. They still can do with it what they want. Ofcourse it makes them more friendly if they would like to implement some of our wishes, but it's not like a dogmatic truth. We were just lucky that Nadeo did it. it takes time to retool their game to power these changes. it's just not falling from the sky.

Nowadays, lots of players complain about developer politics, dlc, make assumptions on how lazy or greedy a developer is and it goes less and less about the games. While you can still see that people who are most enthousiastic about the game will just naturally play.

Parker is never blamed for being greedy if yet another monopoly flavor is released. I never hear about carti mundi (a company in the north of my country Belgium) releases another magic the gathering deck. I never hear about how greedy lego is whenever they release a new set. But in games it seems to be an agenda of a group of users to do so, and I really don't understand.

Because we're always seeing refinements, itterations and new ways to play this game. What we really have to understand is that TMT is more a console game than a PC game. The PC crowd can always buy it if they are new or interested fans who want to play that console experience, while lagoon rollercoaster will just appear on Mania Planet next year.

It's still your choise if you want to buy TMT. I did, I admit, I'm a fanboy so I'm excused. But that doesn't mean everyone who wants to wait for the MP version of lagoon needs to buy turbo. Turbo is it's own thing.

it would maybe have been easier if it wasn't available on pc. Herein lies the confusion. It's also for pc and maybe new players who don't want the customizability of MP and just want to play Turbo.

If I have to make an assumption, there's gonna be a bit of a limitation of what you can import into turbo. Because on Console, there's no way to easily import stuff like on pc. If it's gonna be in the pc version ? I don't know. Will they create easy to use tools for console to import your music ? I don't know. But I have to take a guess, Turbo is all about playing and creating tracks. It's like back to the roots, and offering some customizability. I don't think they'll make the pc version differently than the console version. Turbo is for consoles and it's kinda pointless to have 2 branches of that.

The guys can write me an angry post if I'm wrong though.
Last edited by BLaHiTiS on 17 Jun 2015, 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by Wormii » 17 Jun 2015, 19:16

Well said.
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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by Cerovan » 17 Jun 2015, 19:23

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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by TMarc » 17 Jun 2015, 19:24

indeed, well said, and welcome back BLaHiTiS :thumbsup:
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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by meuh21 » 17 Jun 2015, 19:26

:thumbsup: :1010 for the respect for Nadeo work

Their game, and :thx: to offer us the possibility to be a part of it :pil
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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by WTCYoStunt12 » 17 Jun 2015, 19:37

Perfect Blahitis.

I will just add something :
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Thanks to the people just above and new in the team.
Well, I have not the 1st TM

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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by BLaHiTiS » 17 Jun 2015, 20:35

TMarc wrote:indeed, well said, and welcome back BLaHiTiS :thumbsup:
NP! I'll not burn myself out like I did before though. I'm gonna take it abit easy, but represent the game as good as I can.

I know it's confusing to see a turbo game and then we have to read that there'll be a lagoon environment also for MP. But things can be discussed as Hylis already provided some info on some ideas for compensation.

But I didn't buy tmt for the compensation, I fell in love with lagoon :)


Oh and I didn't want to forget to include in my little history lesson people like Benjisite, Nazgul, Sadhik, and all the rest who made great Server plugins such as fasttmx (thats how it was called right.. god i'm getting rusty),

Anyways, these guys helped propelled the community and they won't say they are sad about it now. It was time well spent.

But it's OK for fans to have a different oppinion and wait for the MP version. But the "greed" card is pulled all too foten, while financial income is the source of why Nadeo can continnue to work. And a bit of passion for the game too ofcourse lol :)

Do think about it that OgrO is creating TM blocks for 10 bloody years, and The dedicated server guy (damn, forgot his name) is being at that for years too. It's work, it's passion but they can't do it for the glory of the sunlight.

Anyways, these guys helped propelled the community and they won't say they are sad about it now. It was time well spent. They won't feel bad.
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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by eyebo » 18 Jun 2015, 20:31

Nice posts BLaHiTiS. Enjoyed the history lesson and you make good points too. :thumbsup: Very mature point of view.
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Re: you are not able to see your fault ...

Post by Neox » 25 Jun 2015, 04:43

It really feels bad.

TM is somehow missing the "united". Maniaplanet was a decent idea but failed and IMO one reason was that stupid title pack system. What use is deep customization when you split the players by environments AND by title packs. And now even another game that is completly seperated? I know to make a perfect system isn't easy at all but it is possible.

I would like to take garrysmod as example. It's more than 8 years old and it still peaks at 45,000+ players each day. The game didn't get any real updates by the devs for a long time now. However the community still creates, plays and has fun.

And to be honest, it's also much easier there. You buy it ONCE and you can play anything with anyone who also bought it. You can simply join your friend or any server with two clicks. Join, download/load and you are in. The servers can modify everything without relying on a title pack or having to update the whole title pack.

It starts with very simple things like:

Want a single new object in your map in gmod? Just pack it in the map and everybody can play the map.

Want a single new object in your track in TM 2? Create a title pack (ohh thats fun!), add the object to the title pack and everybody has to download that title pack to play the track. If a server wants to have the map it has to change to that "title pack".


I know it's actually very hard to do "expansions" (new environments for example) for such games and to get money after the release. That's why I think nadeo should do ONE big game with ALL environments they ever made with a "server side modding support" and if they deside add new environments for free as updates.

The game should have a VERY long lifespan and with a big community they would get money again and AGAIN from new players. (I mean holy shit gmod is at #13 of the top selling games in steam right now!)


That's all I guess.


PS: I hope everything I stated about maniaplanet is still up to date since it's some time I last played any maniaplanet game.

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