[B3.1][Stadium]Very Dark Shadows, even on classic TechTrack

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tcq
Posts: 2718
Joined: 15 Jun 2010, 11:02

Re: [B3.1][Stadium]Very Dark Shadows, even on classic TechTr

Post by tcq » 01 Mar 2013, 20:42

Just to clarify: What I meant wasn't to be understood as "I don't like your idea", but more a practical "it didn't work on canyon and therefore I doubt there will be changes for stadium". I would really appreciate if there would be some changes but with the canyon engine you really need to think about how you place the blocks and which kind of shadow they throw. Makes it quite hard to produce good looking AND good to drive maps, especially in the day mood where the dark/light sections are really strictly divided. Did you tried to load your map in the morning/evening mood? Usually the shadows are more forgiving there.
The whole problematic here is, the game engine and that's why I think the Nadeo move to allow map import from nations is to be seem critical because the nations players do not know how to work with this restrictions in the gaming engine and therefore problems like the one you describe are bound to happen.
Hopefully you know get what I meant to say with my first answer.
tcq wrote:It simply means, that you need to redesign your maps according to the needs of the new engine and take the light/shadow calculations into account, when making a new map.
If a map imported from nations shows this shadow problems, a map author can try to reduce the scenery that throws the shadows or reload the map in another mod with a different sun positioning (e.g. morning/evening) and then use the copy paste tool to turn the whole map until the sun brings lights into the shadow sections.
If both did now work, then this map simply does not fit the TM² version of stadium.

For example, in the mapping guide for TM2 canyon maps at ET generations we specially added a section for the lightning.
tcq wrote:Bringing light
If you don't have much space, but need to add a light block (3-7-2), then you have multiple possibilities to do so.
Open TM2Unlimiter and place your light block, where you need it. Then select the colour of the light. The now placed block will create four poles, which might be disturbing in some sections of your map. To remove them, place the block 3-6-2. Even if it looks like, that this block kills the light, this isn't the case.
Another source of light could be, by placing the large mountain, to reflect the light back to the street. Works especially good in the sunset mood.
Furthermore, here are additional blocks which can help you to add light to your map (thx eyebo for this summary)
eyebo wrote:3-7-1 has a light on the bottom of it. Use it for a roof block. 3-7-2 has a light on the side. Use it for a wall. This two blocks works in all moods and lights can be coloured.
The blocks below are sign blocks which emit light during all moods:
3-7-3, 5-1-4, 9-2-4, 9-3-1
The following blocks have lights on top of them. But these only work during Sunset and Night...
9-4-2, 9-4-3, 9-4-4
The big tanks emit light during Sunset and Night:
9-1-1, 9-1-2, 9-1-3
The pipe blocks have ends which emit light during some moods: 9-2-X
This radio tower emits light during Sunset and Night: 9-3-2
These blocks light up the area nicely during Sunset and Night: 5-4-1, 5-4-2, 5-4-3
Many other blocks have lights such as the GP blocks. Also 4-1-2 and 4-1-3 can be used next to your track to light it up on Sunset or Night tracks.
5-7-1 is a nice block to use on the borders of platforms on Sunset and Night tracks as it has a light on it.
The following blocks also have lights on them during Sunset and Night, but not very bright ones: 5-5-1, 5-5-2, 5-5-3
And don't forget about 6-1-2, 6-1-3, 6-5-2, and 6-5-3.. those arches in the dam blocks for cliffside roads. They put off light in Sunset and Night as well.
And of course 2-6-1 is a good source of light on Sunset and Night maps.
As there will be more blocks with the final release, I hope that there will be some light blocks that can be placed.

occam
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Jun 2010, 17:10

Re: [B3.1][Stadium]Very Dark Shadows, even on classic TechTr

Post by occam » 01 Mar 2013, 21:35

tcq wrote:but more a practical "it didn't work on canyon and therefore I doubt there will be changes for stadium". I would really appreciate if there would be some changes...
since you asked for different gfx setting in that other thread, here is one more argument to try to handle envis differently (although i share your skepticism, Nadeo is just too small for huge revolutionary changes at this point, especially when the graphics-engine is involved)

i am talking out of my a** anyway, because i can only guess that stuff, but depending what settings there are there already is not always an Ultra shadow setting, so in my initial answer i pointed out my suggestion, it would not change anything about the engine it would just look similar to the brightness you have in the editor (before computing shadows...see my follow up post (which predated your insightful post i am answering now, following your super-nice post makes me completely understand your initial post and makes me guess you understood my fears, you just have not much hope on changes on the client to solve it...
...well we have to have warnings for noobs then...i sometimes like going on server with bad tracks, badly...well terribly calculated jumps into nowhere, parts where you have to break like a maniac not to fly of the track or over a CP and alike...it might be funny with badly lit tracks...as long if they are the exception ...btw i will try to modify the initial post...just keep in mind i understand that you got my point...i wanted the client to change to solve the problem we both see, you see the players as the solution (especially because Nadeo probably will not change anything that fundamental 2 Months before release...so admittedly you were more realistic...although hoping one all authors being reasonable might not be one-hundred percent realistic either...

...and ah crap...i had a list of praise prepaired in one version of my answer to you too, but it was too long, it was about you speaking two or three languages more than i and all the brilliant posts i know from you in official tm-forum and dr forum, well for sure here in mp-forum as well...i am pretty sure with the languages though, i must have read it in one ore more of the brilliant posts...might even have been a Norsk language among them like Swedish and i think you speak French...like with MrA, i hope i am not too far off with my memory...i know i was terribly envious, well in a non competitive but meee-tooo-way :- >>

i post the crap i wrote initially now, read it with a grain of salt and keep in mind i already admitted in the paragraph above that i realize that Nadeo will not implement another shadow-rendering option...and i also admit that it might even look like crap, it is ok in TMNF but it might look worse in TM2S...

tcq wrote:...you tried to load your map in the morning/evening mood? Usually the shadows are more forgiving there...
i know, i will try with PartyTech -of course not my map- just for sh*ts and giggles, i already tried with sunset because Skele already pointed the advantage of sunset (and sunrise) mood out and i tried on a test map with the extremely bright ad-signs in canyon it is quite bright :- >

tcq wrote:The whole problematic here is, the game engine and that's why

hehe indeed we know that since Canyon beta, brilliant on the outside, heavily blooming ad-signs and a blue mist inside and on larger distances...
tcq wrote:I think the Nadeo move to allow map import from nations is to be seem critical because the nations players do not know how to work with this restrictions in the gaming engine and therefore problems like the one you describe are bound to happen.
thats is about the tl;dr of my following text (well except the idea with potential alternative shadow calculation, people still would have to use it...so they still would have to think when to use it...except there would be an automation to use a brighter shadow calculation for old maps...but of course it might not work because it might bloom too much in Canyon...well it at least could have the quality you have in the Editor before Shadows are calculated, it is the same in TMNF btw, found under Compatibility (it is in ManiaPlanet as well, but NoShadow can not really be activated...well it seems one can but it will be back to VeryFast after restart...and you are right it already was that way in Canyon beta^ ^ )
tcq wrote:Hopefully you know get what I meant to say with my first answer
hehe, as i said, i do, i do ...thx for the insightful post...since i am no author it is perls for the pigs (apparently the saying exists in French...dunno about English...but since one of the Languages in which you are probably better than i am is German you know what i mean :- >>> ...i still read building guide lines and eyebo's additions with interest...so thx again...i probably will have to double post that initial text...sorry in advance...but might not fit in here as-well anyway :- > i will color code it with light-grey and bold for easy diagonal reading :- >> crap...not a single picture in that wall of text above...have to edit one in later :roflol: :- D

  

occam
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Jun 2010, 17:10

Re: [B3.1][Stadium]Very Dark Shadows, even on classic TechTr

Post by occam » 01 Mar 2013, 21:46

tcq wrote:It simply means, that you need to redesign your maps according to the needs of the new engine and take the light/shadow calculations into account, when making a new map.

true that, at least for future maps but that does not address my point:

I was not talking about new tracks, i am not even talking about RPG tracks.

PartyTech ranked #49 under All-Time-Favorites from 140,859 tracks in TMN ESWC is rather popular and would be rather likely to be imported into a popular sever, populated by newcomers, if there is no quality control and not even an option to generate 'brighter lightmap'-quality it is very likely there will be a huge amount of pitch black maps, which are nearly undrivable for Beginners.

So all i suggested was to make it easier and make it possible to render the shadows in a way you actually can see the track.

I am not even sure if there is a feasable solution, especially not when release will be in April, which is not enough time, nor might it even be desired to have another setting for calculating shadows.

I am aware Florent wants to keep it as small and simple as possible. And it might not be desirable to have to many differences between the environments either: But there is a clear distinction between Canyon, Storm and TM²Stadium: Only for TM2S exist previous Tracks, neither Canyon nor Storm have that problem.


Fix, Hylis and Alinoa and all the other good should in the forum have to read hundreds of posts and i cannot really evaluate what can be done...but i am sure Nadeo has an interest to prevent barely playable in some cases unplayable tracks out there when official release date will come.

At least in theory there could be a third way, as i mentioned in my initial post, a
shadow rendering similar to TMNF: "LightMap Compute: NoShadows".

It might be too bright for the ManiaPlanet Engine, or look ugly or maybe there are other technical restrictions that prevent this solution.

Because i am pretty sure we are on the same side and if you try to see my point we might not that far apart.

tl;dr Don't shoot the messenger, let's hope for more light and better mechanisms for imported classic tracks. Not because of TM veterans but for the ones we might loose on the way and who might otherwise not have a chance to fall in love with TM.


EDIT: tl;dr i already came to the conclusion in the post above that we want the same...and that you might have been right in the fist place and that there might be no solution on client side but that the word has to be spread and people have to readjust maps somehow, with mood, lights whatever means are available at release and some track just will not work anylonger with the initial Mood and structure chosen. And i think we agree that the sh*t still might hit the fan, because not everybody will know how to build proper...well as for me i do not know how to build no matter what rendering engine or which shadows are involved :- >

i guess, i "tl;dr'ed" the sh*t out of this text :- >

:mrgreen:
Last edited by occam on 02 Mar 2013, 08:59, edited 1 time in total.

roke
Posts: 25
Joined: 13 Nov 2011, 21:38

Re: [B3.1][Stadium]Very Dark Shadows, even on classic TechTr

Post by roke » 02 Mar 2013, 01:45

I also have problems with shadows being too dark and, for that matter, white being too white. On a black & white TV I'd run to turn down the contrast knob. The problems manifested on all tracks, not just those in night time environment. Here's two examples:

I played A10 unknowingly yesterday online and the part where it switches to dirt was simply too dark -- to see the corners at all I had to turn off all lights in the room. I played the same track in solo play today and it was slightly darker than would be comfortable but playable. So I guess what I'm saying is that the tracks are even darker online. Don't know if it's possible or not, unless the shadows were re-computed on the server for some particular reason. (The server was probably SSM Fullspeed, but I cannot be 100% sure.)

Had the same problem on A13 - hit the barrier front end of the finish block multiple times because I simply couldn't see it in the shadow. Checked right now on solo play and it's in the dark but visible.

Today I encountered a white banner on a wallride on a speed track which might have been called "You know the way" or something very similar. The white part was so sizzling hot that it simply bleached out everything -- with bumpercam (since current cam2 just doesn't work for me, sorry) my screen was literally all white until I had passed the banner. I don't think that was the intention of whoever built that track.

I sport an i5 with 8GB RAM, Kingston SSD and ATI 6800 something. I assume my settings come from Canyon2 where I have never had any similar problems, but where I haven't driven online even a single time (because I'm lousy, and because it doesn't have my country's car and I can't paint my own because i'm lousy at that too) AFAIR.

This sorta reminds me of my old Voodoo3 and NFS4 where I had to pump up gamma in graphics card driver to be able to play night tracks. And then down again after playing to avoid getting a tan from the monitor.

I'm afraid that unless the settings get a gamma/contrast control or the brilliance is toned down I won't be able to play simply because I won't be able to finish tracks. :oops: :cry:

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