MAPS FOR ESWC

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bas_ekkelenkamp
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Joined: 28 May 2012, 12:50

Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by bas_ekkelenkamp » 07 Aug 2013, 16:40

dreammyw0w wrote:But its just not an option to introduce néw maps to the official mappool everytime NADEO releases a new block.
This has never happened and I never said this.
dreammyw0w wrote:Maps dont need to have every single block implemented into 1 map.
I never said this either, and I agree with you, that would be really silly. My maps don't even have any of the new blocks from the latest update, or even the previous one. I always try to build scenery following a certain theme.
dreammyw0w wrote:Why isnt it normal to you that the community decides which maps will make it into the mappool? Every other mapper deserves a chance too.
Because no mapper in the elite community seems to try anything creative or tries to take risks, didn't you understand my post? Also with my post I wasn't talking about my maps, I was talking about possibly future maps in general.

mpx wrote:
sigh.. why do you guys always ignore my posts, I wrote a long wall of text toraki you can read it if you want.

beacause your points are so bad and you are just talking shit.
thanks, this is exactly why I won't be taking any of you serious anymore, this is crazy

pksens
Posts: 107
Joined: 11 Sep 2012, 13:12

Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by pksens » 07 Aug 2013, 16:43

bas_ekkelenkamp wrote: It's more that you are only wanting to play on the same style of maps, which are to me mostly ugly, un-intresting maps which bring very little to no depth to the game. This really needs to change.

Thanks for reading to everyone who did, I really hope things are going to change drastically in the future.
Cheers, basbaas
Whenever a new map is attempted to be introduced into a competitive scene it will be met with resistance to change, no matter what the map. The next common theme is when a map maker is bashed, or the maps are criticised, the makers tend to feel overly obligated to be offended or are simply sensitive. It's human, I 100% understand this is a normal reaction. But this is the internet and you will always be out numbered by trolls and harsh criticism will always out number constructive criticism, in any field of what you do (be it music, video, blogs, articles, maps, casting, etc.). You have to take the trolls as they are and learn to deal with it: but always pay attention because posts like Luxxiz etc will be there to offer sensible criticism which you can take on board. The last thing we need is Pappychamp & you going into hiding because of the first wall of criticism.

The topic of changing the style of how a map is played out is a highly contentious topic. Which is exactly what these maps are designed to do: by incorporating minimal static defencive spots and bringing in new power blocks.

I am all for the latter: having new tools to work with in a map is a good thing - I love grapples and the last map lists have sorely missed them (bring back Breach!). The new maps tend to have gone over board on this regard. Just because it's a new block it doesn't mean you have to have it all over the map - A map should have a theme and a power block could play it's part in that theme. You could have the arrow platform as a theme for a map and do without the other 1000 redblocks which are there to complicate the map unnecessarily. It could simply be 'The Arrow Map' and it would be nice, if executed well. Imagine it's a map where 1 defender will take up the role 'the Arrow player', much like on maps you may have 'The railpad player'. I am all for future development of the maps in this direction, we need more depth as you say. But it goes wrong the moment you lose sight of balance.

Balance, efficiency, size. When Tazzmajazz orders that maps must have no static defencive spots, he's basically said that he wants the balance of maps to swing in favour of the attacker. But I don't understand this: the objective of elite is for the defence to defend, and the attacker to kill everyone or capture the pole. If he wants the game to be more open and people free roam around, then why are we playing Elite? Have ESWC be Siege or Royal or something, because you can't change the style of a game mode just simply because he doesn't like the way it's played.

We need balance more than anything - nothing is worse than a map which doesn't give you the opportunity to defend with skill & team play. The very best attackers who will hit nearly anything presented in front of them will have no problem in moving around the map and constantly picking players off. Combined with a faster reload, they have the potential to run a map at 100% attacking success rate. You may say this is fair reward, but consider that perhaps he is playing against highly skilled defenders who have nothing in their disposal, thanks to the maps, to survive the round. Is that balanced?

So when you present to us the new Collided & CC, you've completely contradicted your purpose in having the maps. By removing forward static spots you force the teams to play as hidden defencive as possible: You will see 3 people in the back of collided for 99% of ESWC as static as possible. On CC, a map that originally had static spots forward which allowed for aggressive play, a middle line for rail / medium aggression and a back line for the really defencive teams, you removed the forward static spots, removed a lot of the ledges around the middle and subsequently we may see an evolution of ultra defencive style on the map. And it's not our fault for this style : we are playing to win no matter what. We can't make use of 90% of the map due to it not being safe to do so, we can't make use of any developed strategies to cover each other or play aggressive because we face near aimbot style attackers at high level and dying a single time as a defender could be ALL the difference between a win or a loss. $$$.

Finally: not all cages bad: Take Breach for example: it had the 'annoying' cages, but only 2 to work with. The 3rd defender has to play a rotational game, aggressive or hide & seek style. The cages were far enough from the pole that the attacker can always assume positional advantage from it, so it wasn't without depth. Take Paladin forward cage: aAa & Dignitas make good use for it by covering it well from team work, otherwise it would be a tough position to hold solo. But it doesn't center around the pole so as soon as an attacker rotates, they assume their 2ndary positions. So there is a little bit of depth with that as well.

tl;dr = I don't want imbalanced maps against defence. You NEED some static spots, if you want depth then add them smartly in relation to distance to the pole, have power blocks (like rail pad, arrow pad, red blocks) sparingly used to great effect to give the players an additional option to defend effectively. Oh and don't take offence so easily to criticism, it's the internet.
Win7x64Ulti, i7 870, 8gb Geil, ASRock P55 Extreme4, AMD 7950

pksens
Posts: 107
Joined: 11 Sep 2012, 13:12

Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by pksens » 07 Aug 2013, 16:51

And then mpx went full troll mode just as I typed it... too late? :(
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dreammyw0w
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Location: Antwerp

Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by dreammyw0w » 07 Aug 2013, 16:58

bas_ekkelenkamp wrote:
dreammyw0w wrote:Why isnt it normal to you that the community decides which maps will make it into the mappool? Every other mapper deserves a chance too.
Because no mapper in the elite community seems to try anything creative or tries to take risks, didn't you understand my post? Also with my post I wasn't talking about my maps, I was talking about possibly future maps in general.
I think you just offended a lot of mappers :)
Dont consider yourself a better mapper than the others please. ( i know you never said this. But ur answer clearly implies it. )
Ty for agreeing with everything else. Now where is my poll :)


And Sense :D again is 100% right ;)

Kryw
Posts: 432
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Location: Pelagic IV

Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by Kryw » 07 Aug 2013, 17:15

PapyChampy » 07 Août 2013 16:27

But you'll be happy to see your name everytime a caster presses tab, right ?

Kryw so pro.
Why said something so useless like that ? You think I want to make mappool for having my name in a hidden case when pressing tab?
Like I said before, I made for v2 maps an intro with the name of the author (nadeolive,luxxiz)

ESWCSylvain
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Joined: 07 Aug 2013, 15:59

Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by ESWCSylvain » 07 Aug 2013, 17:20

Dear players,

It seems that the ShootMania Storm Elite mappack release for ESWC 2013 had created a surprise and frustrated some of you. And we pay attention to it and to your reactions.

The creation of this new mappack has been decided by ESWC for multiple reasons. We really appreciate PappyChampy and others mappers for their works and involvement on this mappack release.

Firstly as for TrackMania we wish to release a new mappack especially for the new season of ESWC for which the first preliminaries will start soon. It reshuffles the cards and forces players to not stay on their experiences. Of course it forces to relearn new maps but this is a necessary move and there are still a few weeks before the first preliminaries, and months before ESWC Grand Final. This isn’t like the Grand Final is in a week.

But we made this decision especially because the current maps and mappack maybe showed their limits. They are greats but since several months the tactic is mainly to camp in defense side. That tends to make the matches less interesting to play, and less attractive to watch for spectator. This is why we have decided to release new maps to minimize this kind of behavior and to allow the search of new tactics.

We finally wanted to improve the maps looking with more various blocks to show the capacities of the game and to catch the interest of more players and spectators.

So these decisions haven’t been made to harm the game on the contrary. And this is exactly because ESWC is coming and is one of the major tournaments of the year that we are trying to improve the players and spectators experiences with this new mappack. It won’t have interest to do it after ESWC.

Shootmania Storm Elite is still a young mod compared to other games like CS or Dota. Perfect heroes or weapons balances weren’t made in one year. New approaches of tactics and different designs must be made to continue improve Shootmania experience, like it was made with the “beta 3” switch.

pksens
Posts: 107
Joined: 11 Sep 2012, 13:12

Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by pksens » 07 Aug 2013, 17:26

Can we have the maps altered then? Because some changes are necessary and this is the first time they've been played so, nothing can be expected to be perfect.
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dreammyw0w
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Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by dreammyw0w » 07 Aug 2013, 17:28

ESWCsylvain you should read the long post that Sens made on this same page.

Elite is defending a pole. All strats = defend close to the pole.
The map Paladin might be an exception.
1 defender camps at a chokepoint & if the attacker takes the other route then again they go camp close to the pole.

Your idea is good and I thank you for that. But these new maps wont help. It will have the same play-style. The only difference is that we, the players , will be unhappy.

My 2cents.
Last edited by dreammyw0w on 07 Aug 2013, 17:28, edited 1 time in total.

TORAKI
Posts: 75
Joined: 02 Mar 2013, 03:30

Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by TORAKI » 07 Aug 2013, 17:28

ESWCSylvain wrote: But we made this decision especially because the current maps and mappack maybe showed their limits. They are greats but since several months the tactic is mainly to camp in defense side .
I would not agree with that, since lately the push/rush defence has spread alot and defender became more and more aggressive ( still talking about b2 microjump gameplay style)

TORAKI
Posts: 75
Joined: 02 Mar 2013, 03:30

Re: MAPS FOR ESWC

Post by TORAKI » 07 Aug 2013, 17:34

killaprodtm wrote:
TORAKI wrote:Seems to me mapmackers have jumpd on the "be positive" wagon , when they actually are the first to get mad if elite players say the maps are bad ; and elite player are being considered rude and offensive just because 2 or 3 of them have actually had bad manners on the forum...

can we just have a mature debate reasoning and thinking like smart people? I am one of the people who complained about the map, i answered bas that in my opinion the map were bad for the gameplay and other stuff in the most polite way and i got treated like somebody who was showing no respect , when the first thing i said is actually : i respect your work but in my opinion the map should be remade. i don't see where that is being rude or is flaming? is something is bad made you should take feedbacks as positive energy to work and get better results just sayin again for the 4th time , if they way i write sounds rude i apologize but im just having a debate here and im showing respect to everybody (just to answer personally to your post )
It wouldn't have looked rude if you wouldn't have done this
- Permaban of maps
- Looking for mistakes on Bas's map to make him look like a loser (and you must be an expert then, ggggg)
- State that you talk for the whole elite scene
- Trying to compress your anger into complains about Papychampy's opinions
- This one explains itself:
i don't know if your acting like a kid or what? brother u made a map, u failed .
- This
Seems to me mapmackers have jumpd on the "be positive" wagon , when they actually are the first to get mad if elite players say the maps are bad
=> Every mapper is open for feedback, but the first thing you stated was this:
and please don't say we just need to adapt and study them coz it feels like somebody is slapping me in the face and i need to just get over it..
..which drops your level of seriousness by 100 already. No mapmaker would take you serious after this one.

This is what you dropped in order to gain the attention. It mostly looks like you went to this forum to pour gasoline in ashes, hoping you would light them to a fire.

Beeing positive is not bad; why is it? Fun fact: A positive way of life extends your lifetime. :thx:

it's not good to edit my quotes and make em look like im saying something else :) . i've always been polite i don't know why ur attacking me but i will answer to your post anyway :

- Permaban of maps : i don't see where that is offensive , i just said that those maps will gonna be permabanned because players have complained about that.. i don't see where im wrong there :/.. it's something is gonna happen in reality, was it offensive in some way?


- Looking for mistakes on Bas's map to make him look like a loser (and you must be an expert then, ggggg) : im gonna use CAP on this one because i wrote that like 4 time and i never got listened, THE VERY FIRST THING I SAID TO BAS IS : I RESPECT YOUR WORK.. :) so you are here in the forum to get feedbacks from people who play the map .. do you expect me to say that the map is perfect or do you want me to point you out the bad things of the map?.. i don't see what is wrong and i don't see where i have been rude.. im a polite guy in real life i don't see why if i write in a forum i became aggressive :D

- State that you talk for the whole elite scene : i talk FOR the elite scene because that's what im from.. i never said i rapresente anyone, if i did clearly i made a mistake :)

- Trying to compress your anger into complains about Papychampy's opinions : there's nothing to be angry here, im sharing opinion and toughts , you'r the one who's attacking !

i hope that by using smiles you percieve me as a polite person , because clearly by reading what i write in the most calm manner possible u have pictured me like an aggressive guy who wants to flame, but that's not what im trying to do here and that's not the kind of guy i am in any forum or real life ! :lol:

im just talking and there's no way im flaming or being aggressive, that's not who i am bro :) don't judge and jump to conclusion yourself , be positive yourself :thx:
Last edited by TORAKI on 07 Aug 2013, 17:47, edited 1 time in total.

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