Review after 11 years Trackmania

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null8fuenf10
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by null8fuenf10 » 17 Jan 2018, 14:00

rat_in_car wrote:
24 Aug 2017, 09:54
IMO the main problem in this game is that it has really big community, but nobody from TM crew listen them. You may write all your suggestions and complains, report any bugs and probability that there will be any improvement/fix is like 0.01%. Everything was written before, you're not first persons who complains about handling, about similarity of environments etc. But nobody cares! ...

...But as I said - you may complain and wait YEARS (literally) for any answer or reaction and you'll get nothing (or you'll get ban for not being polite, which means you're not writing only good things). If TM programmers will hear what people wants and not trying to be "we're always right" type persons, then this game may be much better.

This!!! :1010

So many of us, told in the past, all this things to NADEO. But we all get the answer, we are not positive enough, we all should wait and see by ourself what a great thing MP4 will be and we should trust in NADEO.

And now? What is now? The Players are gone, the fun is gone, the Game is near Death!

What makes me angry is, that nobody from NADEO see the failure at their side! No its the fault of the (negative/critical) players. Nobody from NADEO comes and say: "Hmmm, maybe we made mistakes..."

The splitting of the Enviroments = the Death of the Trackmania Philosophy

It's absolutly Ok to split Trackmania/Shootmania cause there are two different Games but not the Enviroments...

and to attract more players to both Games, sell them as Single Game, TM or SM, maybe 35,-$,each or as Bundle TM/SM 50,-$

Then one big thing is the absolutly confusing Layout of MP4. To much different spots to go, splitting players again.
Another thing is, we have near endless modification options, but no "ingame" Tutorial how to use them!!! With all this possibilities there must be Tutorials and the Tutorials should be MultiLanguage. The Tutorials should be organized in difficulty: Beginner - Advanced - Expert

I really love the old philosophy of Trackmania and i do what i can to help, bring Trackmania back to the state of the old days.
Hope you all are with me .

Mission Re-Unite Trackmania :pil

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Miss
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by Miss » 17 Jan 2018, 14:16

While you may be right in some things, I disagree with a few:

I don't think in-game tutorials for in-game mod tools are absolutely necessary. Especially in the case of the level editor, it's incredibly easy to understand. The car painter, same thing. Even recently, the Title Maker makes making title packs SO much easier and more accessible. It gets more complex when you start messing with the mesh editor, custom items, scripting, maniatracker, etc, but those are all advanced tools. (Additionally, level editor and other tools already have a button that gives you some basic help about shortcuts and such - the "question mark button".)

Personally I also think "splitting the environments" like you say is not a bad thing. I think I discussed this before, but I'd rather pay 10 euro for 1 environment than pay 40 euro for 4 environments where I only play 1 environment. If anything, this split will only make more players join because it's more affordable that way. (Plus, you still have the ability to play any environment for free in the channels, which helps players "try" these environments before they feel like they should buy them.)

Also, yes, the UI needs to be "refreshed", but it was already said that will come with MP5, so all we can do there is wait.. :)
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by TMarc » 17 Jan 2018, 15:51

Good answer, Miss :thumbsup: :1010

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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by kripkee » 17 Jan 2018, 16:48

Miss wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 14:16
Personally I also think "splitting the environments" like you say is not a bad thing. I think I discussed this before, but I'd rather pay 10 euro for 1 environment than pay 40 euro for 4 environments where I only play 1 environment. If anything, this split will only make more players join because it's more affordable that way. (Plus, you still have the ability to play any environment for free in the channels, which helps players "try" these environments before they feel like they should buy them.)
The problem behind this is the illusion of the playernumber for each title. Lets go Back to TM1 United 2007. You could buy it, but you were never forced to play all envis at the same time (Like TM-Turbo right now). In Maniaplanet, you have to buy 4 games (= 70€ !) for each envi to have all envis - which are splitted as own title. The United solution was simple and logical, you have one game and you see everthing in one serverlist (with the Forever update + all Stadium Server). The Maniaplanet solution is like: "open Lagoon - oh empty", "open Valley - oh empty", "open Canyon - oh, one full server, oh, bad server (might be a personal opinion from a new player) - oh empty", "open Stadium - some full server with ~30 players - meh in TMNF is way more action - pfff",...
A super new player does not care at the moment about "envis" because he does not even know the struture of Trackmania and Maniaplanet at all. A new Player is a casual player who need to be envolved by himself in Trackmania AND in Maniaplanet. The Channel thing for free access player is a horrible solution, because you are forced to play the Envi/title and does not learn nothing about game itself.
In TrackMania Nations Forever, you have a free choice to join the server (+Freezone Rules), you can test the editor, you can play local, you can test the editor and if you like this plattform, you can upgrade your free account to a United account for 30€. This Upgrade disable this Freezone thing and you get 6 (!) Envis for this. But Yes, the game is completly outdated^^ - on the other hand, he/she had the chance to learn something about/in Trackmania instead of being force to play a random channel with random titlepacks and random rules (-> of a view from a brandnew player).

The Channel thing might be cool as "advanced user" to fill your titlepack with players, but a super newbie (with freeaccount) will never learn the full power of Trackmania/Shootmania and Maniaplanet at all. The Demo was a better solution in MP3 for newbies, but I am not a game developer^^

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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by TMarc » 17 Jan 2018, 19:33

... and that's why they made Turbo, so the players who don't want to hassle with mods and servers and simply want to enjoy all recent Maniaplanet-Trackmania games "all in one", with some more doodads&bells.

I guess "the community" does not anymore know what they want, except play anything for free, as long as it is Nations. Then shall those people do that and stop arguing and complaining "forever"! :P

Hylis has told once in the past that they were actually not game makers, but game tool makers.
And this is what they did "improve" with Maniaplanet.
With a few showcase titles. Not perfect (when will anything be really perfect for everybody anyways?) but apparently quite usable.
Now the community can do nearly complete games on their own, with the only restriction "either inside Trackmania universe or Shootmania universe under the hood of Maniaplanet". And they only need to pay... nothing for a start, and at least the one title their work is based on.

Is that not something? Instead of having to wait for the next add-on or DLC or whatever official content, players - if they are willing to invest some time and gather knowledge and experience - can do something themselves, they can nearly create their own ecosystem.
Look at the nice titles like Raid, Snow aka Trackmania One, the incredible map packs from Adamkoo, MrDVD or Sparkster, the SmurfsCups and NRL cup, the server tool eXpansion... only to name just a few still active creations.
And the best, it is also almost for free for the players.
They can decide, they can chose what they want to play.

But nooo, it's too much choice now? I don't understand it.
There is always this "nah we don't want it we can't use it because blah blah" instead of "oh, could we not have this? Would be even better! But while waiting, we try now first with the things we have!".

I'm really tired of that. And I guess not only me.
Look, Hylis has not written anything anymore here since more than half a year!
Whatever he is thinking and doing now, this is certainly not a good sign.

However, the developers are trying to fix some stuff, they are working on something in the background.
Perhaps not anymore entirely for Maniaplanet (who knows really at the moment?), but they are still there.
And this counts enough for me to tell that Maniaplanet and Trackmania are not abondoned.

I agree that Nadeo has done many things where they rely a lot on the community.
The community also has done a lot.
Not everything went well.
But if there is still a community, we should stop whining and gather forces to show we still care, we are still here, and we want to improve and not just destroy.

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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by Miss » 17 Jan 2018, 20:15

kripkee wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 16:48
Miss wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 14:16
Personally I also think "splitting the environments" like you say is not a bad thing. I think I discussed this before, but I'd rather pay 10 euro for 1 environment than pay 40 euro for 4 environments where I only play 1 environment. If anything, this split will only make more players join because it's more affordable that way. (Plus, you still have the ability to play any environment for free in the channels, which helps players "try" these environments before they feel like they should buy them.)
The problem behind this is the illusion of the playernumber for each title. Lets go Back to TM1 United 2007. You could buy it, but you were never forced to play all envis at the same time (Like TM-Turbo right now). In Maniaplanet, you have to buy 4 games (= 70€ !) for each envi to have all envis - which are splitted as own title. The United solution was simple and logical, you have one game and you see everthing in one serverlist (with the Forever update + all Stadium Server). The Maniaplanet solution is like: "open Lagoon - oh empty", "open Valley - oh empty", "open Canyon - oh, one full server, oh, bad server (might be a personal opinion from a new player) - oh empty", "open Stadium - some full server with ~30 players - meh in TMNF is way more action - pfff",...
A super new player does not care at the moment about "envis" because he does not even know the struture of Trackmania and Maniaplanet at all.
Right, I understand that. Having all environments in 1 purchase is convenient, especially for new players who initially don't know the difference between Stadium/Canyon/Valley/Lagoon. It might even put them in dedicated servers if they come from a different environment.

But then again, do you think those new players are going to lean towards one environment they like the most, or do you think they will play all the environments? -- I think it's mostly the hardcore Nadeo fans that play all the environments.

Being able to play all the environments in the channels as a demo player allows for much the same, though; there's 30-60 minute sessions for different environments that you can try out, much like how it was on MP3, except it's now more easily accessible and better advertised.

But I do understand the dedicated server problem there, as in - not having any players in servers because people don't want to buy the environment. (But maybe that's just because they don't like the environment? Who knows.. Honestly, a lot of this discussion is just guessing what will or will not work.. :) )
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by kripkee » 17 Jan 2018, 20:51

TMarc wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 19:33
Is that not something? Instead of having to wait for the next add-on or DLC or whatever official content, players - if they are willing to invest some time and gather knowledge and experience - can do something themselves, they can nearly create their own ecosystem.
Look at the nice titles like Raid, Snow aka Trackmania One, the incredible map packs from Adamkoo, MrDVD or Sparkster, the SmurfsCups and NRL cup, the server tool eXpansion... only to name just a few still active creations.
And the best, it is also almost for free for the players.
Nobody is saying that they (and my) work of community content is useless. It's just meaningless, if new player don't understand this kind of content or can't even join a cup, if he/she hasn't buy a key of an environent. This has nothing to do with being negative. ^^
Free players see only the channel and the channel is only naked server with maps of the titlepack/Main game. There is now way to understand Maniaplanet or Trackmania itself for a newby?^^
TMarc wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 19:33
They can decide, they can chose what they want to play.
I am not sure if I have a different freeaccount than you, but I am completly forced to play one title for a period of time in Trackmania / Shootmania, there is basicly no attention to learn more about the game. They have to buy the game (1 of 4 TM²Titles) to learn finaly Trackmania / Shootmania and Maniaplanet.
With the demo version, we had demonstrably more players and you could test everything - even in titlepacks. The current channelsystem is like nothing than a server with maps.
TMarc wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 19:33
But nooo, it's too much choice now? I don't understand it.
There is always this "nah we don't want it we can't use it because blah blah" instead of "oh, could we not have this? Would be even better! But while waiting, we try now first with the things we have!".

I'm really tired of that. And I guess not only me.
Look, Hylis has not written anything anymore here since more than half a year!
Whatever he is thinking and doing now, this is certainly not a good sign.
And what is the arguement? what is the solution?^^

It's ok to have a community, but the maniaplanet-system let it look like an empty and an uninterested plattform. So how can Nadeo improve Maniaplanet? My personal solution: Merge all 4 TM²Titles in one with an "add-on" System which contains Titlepacks, Manialinks,... and a global TM-Server list. This case would create an other illusion for a brand new player and it would create more "action" for the brand new player itself to learn about more Maniaplanet and Trackmania (maybe^^). Even if everything is merged, you can keep this "seperate" in TM² itself for each environment (TM1 -> Coast 90k Server for example). It just change the view of numbers and actions which can be done in the game.
TMarc wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 19:33
and that's why they made Turbo, so the players who don't want to hassle with mods and servers and simply want to enjoy all recent Maniaplanet-Trackmania games "all in one", with some more doodads&bells.
Trackmania Turbo is the only game where I have to write it in a negative way:
Trackmania Turbo is just an other game and "splitting" again communitys but this does not work, because it's casual - It was a way to bring new players to Maniaplanet, correct? (yes, it was intended). But in Trackmania Turbo is no single information about Maniaplanet?^^
Trackmania Turbo removed the simplest core features like Cam 1, giving a map a name, no recognizable and explainable ranking system - and an extern link to the playerpage is hardcore 08/15,...
Trackmania Turbo abused Lagoon to buy TMTurbo, because it was "not ready" Maniaplanet?^^
[...]
_______
Look, I am just sitting here. "And I guess not only me". I just waiting here for the "b00m" for Trackmania/Shootmania/Maniaplanet. But there is no "b00m" since serveral Updates and improvements. There was a short "b00m" in MP2 with Shootmania, TM²Stadium and "TM²Valley". Since MP2 to MP3 and to MP4, the interest of the players which liked the games is gone. Of course, we can ignore statistics and say that's ok^^

So my question, why not improve the game with community suggestions/solutions instead of "one way ticket" of a big plan, when "nobody" is there to use the big plan, when it's done? Why not creating an audience before instead of reduce them?^^
Why should I build million of cars, if nobody is interested to buy my car anymore, because someone else created this kind of car before and costumer are interested in their car right now?^^
Trackmania/Nadeo has at the moment the best positon for a racing/esport game with ingame trackbuilding system. Why just don't use it? What happens, if somewhen somehwere else creating a acarde-racing game with a simple serversystem and trackbuliding system?^^

EDIT:
Miss wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 20:15
kripkee wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 16:48
Miss wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 14:16
Personally I also think "splitting the environments" like you say is not a bad thing. I think I discussed this before, but I'd rather pay 10 euro for 1 environment than pay 40 euro for 4 environments where I only play 1 environment. If anything, this split will only make more players join because it's more affordable that way. (Plus, you still have the ability to play any environment for free in the channels, which helps players "try" these environments before they feel like they should buy them.)
The problem behind this is the illusion of the playernumber for each title. Lets go Back to TM1 United 2007. You could buy it, but you were never forced to play all envis at the same time (Like TM-Turbo right now). In Maniaplanet, you have to buy 4 games (= 70€ !) for each envi to have all envis - which are splitted as own title. The United solution was simple and logical, you have one game and you see everthing in one serverlist (with the Forever update + all Stadium Server). The Maniaplanet solution is like: "open Lagoon - oh empty", "open Valley - oh empty", "open Canyon - oh, one full server, oh, bad server (might be a personal opinion from a new player) - oh empty", "open Stadium - some full server with ~30 players - meh in TMNF is way more action - pfff",...
A super new player does not care at the moment about "envis" because he does not even know the struture of Trackmania and Maniaplanet at all.
Right, I understand that. Having all environments in 1 purchase is convenient, especially for new players who initially don't know the difference between Stadium/Canyon/Valley/Lagoon. It might even put them in dedicated servers if they come from a different environment.

[1]But then again, do you think those new players are going to lean towards one environment they like the most, or do you think they will play all the environments? -- I think it's mostly the hardcore Nadeo fans that play all the environments.

[2]Being able to play all the environments in the channels as a demo player allows for much the same, though; there's 30-60 minute sessions for different environments that you can try out, much like how it was on MP3, except it's now more easily accessible and better advertised.

[3]But I do understand the dedicated server problem there, as in - not having any players in servers because people don't want to buy the environment. (But maybe that's just because they don't like the environment? Who knows.. Honestly, a lot of this discussion is just guessing what will or will not work.. :) )
[1]Well, nothing speak against a merged system, where you can activte each enviroment in a seperate way for each environment itself. You have currently the view: An Environment one price. This kind of view was never a point for TM1. It was like having 6 enviroments + Stadium and if you don't like rally for example, then was it like "shit happens" and it was never a negative aspect of the game. There was never the spirit of "beeing the best in all environments" because the environments of the game. You can even create one envi Server, TMO and TMS only server. It was never a point to buy United with thinking like "but I don't want coast and rally". This view got created with the help of Maniaplanet and "splitting" things

[2]what excactly is more accessible and better advertised?^^ There is no freedom, you are just forced to have play the current channel. with the Demo you had the freedom to join any server of any title anytime. I don't see any improvement here^^

[3]Well, Maniaplanet is just ultra complex for a brand new player, if he/she finaly bought a key for TM²/SM - Maniaplanet has to be simple and not like this right know^^
As I already mentoined, we have to create another illusion for a new player to make it more interesting^^

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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by Miss » 17 Jan 2018, 23:46

kripkee wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 20:51
[1]Well, nothing speak against a merged system, where you can activte each enviroment in a seperate way for each environment itself. You have currently the view: An Environment one price. This kind of view was never a point for TM1. It was like having 6 enviroments + Stadium and if you don't like rally for example, then was it like "shit happens" and it was never a negative aspect of the game. There was never the spirit of "beeing the best in all environments" because the environments of the game. You can even create one envi Server, TMO and TMS only server. It was never a point to buy United with thinking like "but I don't want coast and rally". This view got created with the help of Maniaplanet and "splitting" things

[2]what excactly is more accessible and better advertised?^^ There is no freedom, you are just forced to have play the current channel. with the Demo you had the freedom to join any server of any title anytime. I don't see any improvement here^^

[3]Well, Maniaplanet is just ultra complex for a brand new player, if he/she finaly bought a key for TM²/SM - Maniaplanet has to be simple and not like this right know^^
As I already mentoined, we have to create another illusion for a new player to make it more interesting^^
[1] I'm a bit confused at what exactly you're saying here. Are you saying that there was no reason to buy TMUF because TMNF was free anyway? And that's apparently a good thing? Maybe I'm mis-interpreting, you wrote a bit of a weird paragraph there, I had to re-read it 3 times :P

[2] With more accessible I mean it's easier to find new content in new environments. Say for example you're a brand new player and you see the channels which are available for demo players. They play on the channels, and every 30 minutes they can try new content + a different environment. This makes it easier/faster to try the new environments, compared to having to explicitly enter (and install) a titlepack, open the serverlist, and pick a server to play in. With more advertised I mean that the channels are the first thing you see when you log in. It's hard to miss!

[3] Yes, sure, but that falls under the UI refresh, which should happen with MP5.

Ps: I do like your "global serverlist" idea in your discussion with TMarc, just from a UX perspective. :thumbsup:
Pss: You say Turbo was intended to "bring people to Maniaplanet"? I mean.. that was definitely not the primary goal. The goal of Turbo was to bring Trackmania to consoles, which was a big success. The additional side effect is that people who really love the game will also find Maniaplanet. As for the people you say don't exist who found Maniaplanet, you can take a look at the Turbo forum right here on the Maniaplanet forum :P
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by kripkee » 18 Jan 2018, 07:15

[1] I'm a bit confused at what exactly you're saying here. Are you saying that there was no reason to buy TMUF because TMNF was free anyway? And that's apparently a good thing? Maybe I'm mis-interpreting, you wrote a bit of a weird paragraph there, I had to re-read it 3 times :P
Well, I know TM since 2005 with TMO/TMS, I bought TMU/F without playing/knowing TMNF before, so I can't speak for others which found the game back in 2007/2008 with TMN/F.
The atmosphere during this time was great - compared to right now. Whatever, yes there was no big reason to buy TMUF for a new player. TMNF was like a "Standard Version" (until freezone was released) and TMUF like an "extended version" of TMNF which contains 6 more environement with a bundle of solomaps. If you had some envis which you did not liked, then you never really played these envis, but you was still able to join each server. There was no thinking like "oh I wasted my money because Envi X is bad" or something like that. This Illusions was created with Maniaplanet^^
For Maniaplanet we have already stadium which can be "abused" to give new player the chance to learn Maniaplanet and Trackmania. Analog to TM²Canyon, Valley and Lagoon, it would be super simple to create TM² "universal key" for ~30-40€, if a new player is interested to see more of Maniaplanet.
It's cool that we have people which create things for maniaplanet, but it's basicly pointless, if there is no audience for your creation^^
[2] With more accessible I mean it's easier to find new content in new environments. Say for example you're a brand new player and you see the channels which are available for demo players. They play on the channels, and every 30 minutes they can try new content + a different environment. This makes it easier/faster to try the new environments, compared to having to explicitly enter (and install) a titlepack, open the serverlist, and pick a server to play in. With more advertised I mean that the channels are the first thing you see when you log in. It's hard to miss!
[2] That might be right, but the case is, a new player is learning nothing about Maniaplanet and the game itself^^
Pss: You say Turbo was intended to "bring people to Maniaplanet"? I mean.. that was definitely not the primary goal. The goal of Turbo was to bring Trackmania to consoles, which was a big success. The additional side effect is that people who really love the game will also find Maniaplanet. As for the people you say don't exist who found Maniaplanet, you can take a look at the Turbo forum right here on the Maniaplanet forum :P
I am pretty sure I red somewhen something like (from nadeo side) ~"If people like TMTurbo, they might move to Maniaplanet to give them the "full power" of Trackmania" ^^

Whatever, things are done now and "we" will wait and watch what happens in the future :)

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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by opreax » 18 Jan 2018, 09:50

TMT had to be salvation, best trackmania with united enviroments where all players will unite and transfer from tm2/tm1 to TMT. But no, you must fu*k it up. Best thing on it is that TM2 is even more dead than TMT, yesterday I was playing TMT in room with 20 people. TM2 Valley + Lagoon = less than 10 people.

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