Review after 11 years Trackmania

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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by nighthawk4571 » 24 Jan 2018, 20:47

Well said Demented! :thumbsup:
* My comments in blue.
Demented wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 16:48
These are my personal opinions.
I see two major problems that are a big cause of loss of Trackmania players.

1)- ... it took quite some time to get use to the handling of some of the vehicles and most new users don't want to take that time. They want to be able to play it within a few minutes or they will move on. Lagoon made me cuss a lot before I got the hang of it and ... *(exactly the same for me) ...

nighthawk4571 wrote:
As I never had access to the hidden 'Beta' forum, I've often wondered whether those selected players had anything to say about these features or if they generally felt that they liked the vehicle handling. Or, if they didn't like it, I wonder how NADEO dealt with that before release.

The Valley car handles in a very similar way to TMU Rally, so I guess older players would adjust. I know I did but I do accept that many people would have been frustrated. This is a shame, as the Valley environment is otherwise spectacular.

The Lagoon car, handling a little bit like TMU Bay and Snow mixed together, is even harder to master. Whether the Beta players accepted the physics or not, I think it should be possible to address the car's movement without damaging this Pack. Meaning all maps created since Lagoon's release should still be playable but noticeably smoother for the majority of players - not just the (decreasing number of) hard-core Lagooners.
Demented wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 16:48

2)- The other major problem I see is;
Future development really needs to be put on hold for the moment and all focus should be temporarily put into getting all the current bugs ironed out. MP4 is still very buggy and fixes seem to be coming at a trickle. Often fixing one bug generates new ones. Why add new content to bugged base. Get the problems fixed as quickly as possible so people can enjoy what has been created so far, then move forward on a more solid base.
Trackmania is such a cool game but it doesn't really matter if you can't fully play it. Seems over the past year there is always some aspect of it that I can't use or have to work around. Please finish what you have.

nighthawk4571 wrote:
You have hit the nail on the head here. :clap:
Cheers :pil
Last edited by nighthawk4571 on 24 Jan 2018, 22:41, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by TMarc » 24 Jan 2018, 20:56

this below is my personal view and impression only.

As many of you wrote above here, you see yourself thast there is not just "the one reason" why we have the current situation.
It is a mix of many things, even if probably a big part of the responsibility is indeed from Nadeo side.

But they did not only release a new version (MP4) because they just like what they do,
they also did stuff for us, because we asked and keep asking for many things.
It is very sad to see that the development (both of the game and the players) is apparently going in a wrong direction,
and that there is no clear communication from Nadeo about the current state.
There is no communication at all except the answers to support issues.
What are they doing now? 40 people working and no output? Does not sound good.
And this makes me and probably many others feel lost.
Why should we continue playing if there is no further development?
Nadeo will say "look at TMUF, it is still very popular and this without any support".
Ha. Ha. Not funny.

Trackmania has superseeded itself, but I would say, not only because of Nadeo.

When the dedicated servers were relatively easy to setup, everyone with some minimum degree of knowledge, every team, wanted to have an own.
Then came all the server controller scripts, Dedimania etc, lot of great stuff.
But already there the split started.
Too many servers = much less people on individual servers. Perhaps except the well known and well running servers of e.g. SSM or Maniacs.
Since the community had enough servers, Nadeo were able to shut down their own (saving costs).
But then players were more and more frustated, because of empty and overcrowded servers, spam and bans, bugs and issues.

And also the creative players wanted to have more and more stuff, e.g. own blocks, own items, own mods, and finally own titles.
The idea to have servers with own titles is not bad, but the quality of both the title and the server+controller must be good enough to attract and keep players active.
Nadeo relied and relies a lot on the community to regulate things, but this does not work by istelf. It depends a lot on the engagement of players.
There are ladders, there are map rankings, there are developers, but there is no clear overview anymore,
especially since MP4 update which apparently broke many things kind of unnecessarily.
Instead of increasing the stability and reliability, the focus was more towards new players.
There are certainly everyday, with old known and new problems like account issues, skin not showing up, or network connection issues.
But the games are not keeping them attracted like it was in the past to have a critical mass of the community, or they don't care, play only causally perhaps.

Also, along with the various releases of Maniaplanet, Trackmania2, Turbo, I don't know exactly when,
but it doesn't matter actually, there was a noticeable change in the community.
I guess most of the "old" players were saturated, and perhaps also disappointed by the development.
And the new players can't keep the pace with the new titles, each one more difficult than the other.
Good for the best, but catastrophic for the newbies.
Steering of Valley was already difficult, but somehow manageable after lot of training.
Lagoon was really to hard, or worse: erratic, especially in Turbo.
Sure, I don't have anymore the time to play computer games as much as earlier, for different reasons. My own fault you say.
But this is why I chose games - or titles - which are either easy to control, or at least don't frustrate me on the long term.

I also remember of long discussions about titles being DLC, and all possible cost discussions.
But we have all to admit that Nadeo games are rather cheap compared to other games.

Only one example, since I'm also a railfan, I have several different train related games, starting with Sid Meyer's Railroad Tycoon and its successors, ending with the current Train Simulator from DTG. And there, often the DLC costs a lot of real money. Just one engine costs between a few euros up to 30 euros. New official scenarios (a track line of several kilometers lenght in a part of a specific country) cost up to 50 euros. And there are hundreds of such DLC contents, not including the contents which are not listed on the official site or in Steam.
There is so much DLC, nobody can play everything, it's like if you would try to play all maps on Maniaexchange, its simply impossible.
But still I purchased lot of DLC (admittedly mostly in sales), because I am interested in those tracks or trains.
In the Steam forum, there is even regularly the question "Why do all DLC cost several thousands of euros", as if they would like to purchase them all...
I have stopped counting the DLC and the money invested.
What I want to tell, I'm not ashamed because of the amount I have invested, and the time I already have consumed simply driving trains on tracks.
Most of you will tell it is boring. Sure it is, but it is relaxing :lol:
And don't think that because it costs a lot that there are no bugs. It's actually the opposite. There are lots of bugs which are not fixed. Bugs in the Train Simulator engine, bugs in the train models, bugs in the scenarios, bugs in the scripts...
Some bugs are fixed then and when, but I don't have the time to play tracks again only to see they are working now.
They release every year a new version of the game, only slightly modified, but they also have started working and releasing a much more modern version of the game, under a new name ("TSW - Train Sim World"), where the DLC are even more expensive.
And people are buying that!

Sure, not everyone can afford buying DLC all the time, or even one title for some time. Only telling.

What I wanted to say is:
We should all be thankful that Nadeo did not ask for that much money and that they allowed to create stuff and also give the creations to other players nearly for free.
But I'm sad that meuh21 did never continue nor release his Moon project, for which the low gravity setting was introduced after lot of "fighting".
Nadeo did add it, and at the end there was still nothing for the players? Too bad.

Perhaps Nadeo has opened a kind of "Pandoras Box" with the title creations, also another box with Shootmania.
But I really hope they are working on something astonishing.
Otherwise I fear that the Trackmania and Shootmania universe will decrease furthermore and finally stop forever.

You know, I also already thought of stopping my engagement here, at least as moderator, since there is not anymore that much to moderate luckily.
But also as player... I was never good driver, never good mapper, and most of the times playing alone or without success on servers.
It was really fun for some time, but it should never frustrate or make angry. Not for a game!
I still like Trackmania, no doubt, and I will still follow its process.

But my heart is not anymore attached to it there like it was before.
I wouldn't say someone stole it, I rather say I gave it to someone, to a person who brought me back into the real life after a long period of loneliness, and this even made us both winners of our personal games of life, because she somehow had a comparable evolution in her life.
If you find someone who is willing to go with you, to support you without any condition, to love you like you are, this is the best what can happen to you!

In the past, at least for some time, I felt it was also a bit the case between Nadeo and the community: that there was a good connection.
But now I feel that both the players and Nadeo have lost the contact, the trust, the respect, the patience, and also the will to do good things.
Both coexist, but both wonder about each other, since even if we are writing here, the eternal complaint "they don't listen" is still there and unfortunately well valid!

Nadeo, we want, no, we need good and substancial news, not only like "we are in a good situation", but what you are working on!
We need more frequent updates on development version and real fixes in stable versions of the games.
We need new good stuff, like good and professional titles, as showcase or blockbusters.
And if you can't provide, teach the players to do great stuff on their own.
Do not only tell "it is possible if you want", but really help!
Not on random cases, but on regular basis.
Give tutorials, improve the documentation, have showcase servers, allow channel customization, do whatever is necessary to make the players happy :pil

Or at least clearly tell if you have stopped working on Maniaplanet and Trackmania so people don't wait for things which will never happen anymore.

Stop hiding!
Please!

Thanks :oops:

Also thanks to all the support from you guys, players and developers :thx:
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by Rots » 24 Jan 2018, 21:03

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Last edited by Miss on 24 Jan 2018, 22:19, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed big giant quote :P
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by nighthawk4571 » 24 Jan 2018, 21:20

Great points TMarc! :thx:
* My comments in blue.
TMarc wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 20:56

... But I'm sad that meuh21 did never continue nor release his Moon project, for which the low gravity setting was introduced after lot of "fighting".
Nadeo did add it, and at the end there was still nothing for the players? Too bad.

nighthawk4571 wrote:
I absolutely agree here. After all the fuss 'back then', meuh went silent! :( :ugeek:

In the past, at least for some time, I felt it was also a bit the case between Nadeo and the community: that there was a good connection.
But now I feel that both the players and Nadeo have lost the contact, the trust, the respect, the patience, and also the will to do good things.
Both coexist, but both wonder about each other, since even if we are writing here, the eternal complaint "they don't listen" is still there and unfortunately well valid!
...
... Or at least clearly tell if you have stopped working on Maniaplanet and Trackmania so people don't wait for things which will never happen anymore.

nighthawk4571 wrote:
I truly hope that hylis and the gang haven't lost heart. Their creations are unique and ambitious, so I hope they can recover and get a boost into the next phase, even if it is to tidy up what we already have.
Cheers :pil
Last edited by nighthawk4571 on 25 Jan 2018, 07:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by adamkooo2 » 24 Jan 2018, 21:50

TMarc wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 20:56
...
Very nice said :thumbsup:

When a player start to play MP, he/she is complaining about:
-menu and navigation
-physics of TM2 (but not in stadium)
-no help & knowledge with the tools

And has no idea about:
> 90% of all the tools
> titlepacks
> community, forums
> manialinks, items
> name of developed team (Nadeo)
> chat in some cases

You (Nadeo) have to change that asap.

Also the lagoon physics needs to be completely changed to bring more players (I recommend to do it in style of one of the TM1 envis, I mean the car will be sliding on some speed and also the sand, grass and wood physics must be changed). Same for the Valley dirt physics. Only in this way you can make the game more attractive for newbies.


Good luck in the future! :)
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by hackie » 24 Jan 2018, 22:17

TMarc, from the heart :thx:
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by null8fuenf10 » 25 Jan 2018, 00:21

TMarc wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 20:56

Nadeo, we want, no, we need good and substancial news, not only like "we are in a good situation", but what you are working on!
We need more frequent updates on development version and real fixes in stable versions of the games.
We need new good stuff, like good and professional titles, as showcase or blockbusters.
And if you can't provide, teach the players to do great stuff on their own.
Do not only tell "it is possible if you want", but really help!
Not on random cases, but on regular basis.
Give tutorials, improve the documentation, have showcase servers, allow channel customization, do whatever is necessary to make the players happy :pil

Or at least clearly tell if you have stopped working on Maniaplanet and Trackmania so people don't wait for things which will never happen anymore.

Stop hiding!
Please!

Thanks :oops:

Also thanks to all the support from you guys, players and developers :thx:
:shock: :1010 :clap: Woooow!

You hit the nail on the head! You got the point! True words, Respect!

adamkooo2 wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 21:50
...
When a player start to play MP, he/she is complaining about:
-menu and navigation
-physics of TM2 (but not in stadium)
-no help & knowledge with the tools

And has no idea about:
> 90% of all the tools
> titlepacks
> community, forums
> manialinks, items
> name of developed team (Nadeo)
> chat in some cases

You (Nadeo) have to change that asap.

Also the lagoon physics needs to be completely changed to bring more players (I recommend to do it in style of one of the TM1 envis, I mean the car will be sliding on some speed and also the sand, grass and wood physics must be changed). Same for the Valley dirt physics. Only in this way you can make the game more attractive for newbies.


Good luck in the future! :)
You are true!

I think to attract more and new Players, we need:

-Fixing Bugs and make official Titles playable again (Platform - TM2 Titlepack)
-Tutorials (Beginner - Advanced - Expert) Tools - Editors - Titlepacks - Manialinks - (Maybe some kind of Driving Tutorials for Beginners)
-InGame/Menu Music - Its always the same boring Melody, make different Musictitles
-Better Integration of Planets - No idea how :mrgreen:
-More Challenges - Daily-Weekly-Monthly Missions (with some kind of Rewards)
-Manialinks more centralized - Maniapark and ManiaExchange fixed integrated InGame
-SpecialSale Bundles - Two Envis at the price of one, when you own one Envi or so
-Maybe short time Giveaway one Envi ( Lagoon or Valley) for Free
-We need new good stuff, like good and professional titles, as showcase or blockbusters (like TMarc said)

That's what i think could help!

And about the Handling...

Lagoon! Hmm, i like it very much. But i think, the switches in handling from ground to ground are too hard.
Especially from Sand/Wood to Road and on TurboBlocks inside Wood or Sand, you get from Drift to 100% Grip in 1ms, that feels not good.
The Sand Handling is too hard and should be optimized, too! Wood is OK. And maybe make the feeling of the Car a bit heavier.

I don't know what you all have with Valley Handling? I like it, what is the Problem? :roll:

And Canyon is good, too. When the Enviroments are too easy to control, it would be also no Trackmania anymore!


What i (personally) gladly want to see, is the possibility to build Maps with the Joypad, like it is in TMT.
I never builded one in MP, but at TMT i had really Fun to build maps, only cause the Joypad! I love it!!! :1010
But without possibility to give names to my tracks, for me useless!!!


I really hope we can save MP and make it great, again! :3 We can do this :!: (NADEO + Community (reunited?))

Greetings
null8fuenf10 :pil

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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by Miss » 25 Jan 2018, 11:04

Let's sort this in order of important to not important to "this is more marketing job":
null8fuenf10 wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 00:21
I think to attract more and new Players, we need:

-Fixing Bugs and make official Titles playable again (Platform - TM2 Titlepack)
-More Challenges - Daily-Weekly-Monthly Missions (with some kind of Rewards)
-Better Integration of Planets - No idea how :mrgreen:
-Manialinks more centralized - Maniapark and ManiaExchange fixed integrated InGame
-We need new good stuff, like good and professional titles, as showcase or blockbusters (like TMarc said)
-Tutorials (Beginner - Advanced - Expert) Tools - Editors - Titlepacks - Manialinks - (Maybe some kind of Driving Tutorials for Beginners)
-InGame/Menu Music - Its always the same boring Melody, make different Musictitles
-SpecialSale Bundles - Two Envis at the price of one, when you own one Envi or so
-Maybe short time Giveaway one Envi ( Lagoon or Valley) for Free
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by i7mean » 25 Jan 2018, 11:10

Yep, in fact in order to make the game Trackmania great again, Nadeo just has to finish it, make it a real finished game. . That's why we had our expectations so high for Turbo (but even that, they messed up royally, but let's not talk about it); it's because when you click "PLAY" it looks like a real game. What else do I have to say, every post above is real; maybe I would add the fact that Trackmania has SO SO MUCH esport potential, there is absolutely NO racing game in the esport scene, and even if there was one, it wouldn't be player's skill based like TM is. Trackmania fills so much the conditions to be an esport game, it makes me sick sometimes because it feels it has been wasted. Sad.
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Re: Review after 11 years Trackmania

Post by null8fuenf10 » 25 Jan 2018, 11:41

Miss wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 11:04
Let's sort this in order of important to not important to "this is more marketing job":
Agreed. ;) Except that i would say that Tutorials are more important, then new stuff!

And can anyone tell me, what the problem with the Valley Handling is? I don't think it should be optimized. Only Lagoon, slightly.


Greetings
null8fuenf10 :pil
Last edited by null8fuenf10 on 25 Jan 2018, 11:44, edited 1 time in total.

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