When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

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JakJak
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by JakJak » 14 Apr 2019, 23:17

Thank you for your answers and opinions. ;)
But that doesn't answer my question about this topic.

I would like to have a simple answer from Nadeo because it has been since 2013 that the game doesn't seem to have finished properly
( the subject doesn't concern the different small or big problems) .

It's a general question

Sincerely !
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Miss
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by Miss » 15 Apr 2019, 01:07

Honestly, I don't believe there is an answer to this. Nothing is truly ever "finished". No single piece of complex software is free of bugs, especially games. No developer is going to look at a game they released decades ago and say "oh there's a weird clipping object here, let's fix it decades later". (An extreme example, but I hope you get the point I'm trying to get across :P )

I think you need to reformulate your question. Don't use the word "finish", use something more realistic. For example; "when are you going to stop supporting TrackMania 2". (For the record, I don't believe they will stop supporting the game anytime soon, since TrackMania is a huge brand.)
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by JakJak » 15 Apr 2019, 14:26

Thank you for your answer
Thank you for changing my consideration on this subject ;)
But there are always answers to the questions when you step back:

Your example remains bad after proofreading:
-Many game developers are working on old problems in their games
-A lot of games no bugs/problems after their release or /Update

Little Ex: (No differentiation for, the budget, direction, destination, vision, of the game):
-Cs Series, L4dead, Serieportal
-Rocket league
-Northegard,AOE,AOM,AOM,Serie civilsation
-Far cry series ,Fallout series ,Bioshok series-metro series
-Limbo ,Grey, Abzu,Inside ,Life is strange
-Rust,Fortnite,
-Lol-Dota2
etc......
(I have never had and seen any major problems in this list of games, developers work on old problems in their games)

*It is the developers' job to finish their games not to the players.
*If it is important that they see their games.
*When there are bugs/problems that are 4 years old" or today, they have to fix it even if there is a lot of work to do.

Trackmania is not a huge brand, these games are culture and fun.

***Anecdote:
it is easy to understand the different problems in trackmania:
Launch Trackmania and try all options/possibilities of the game:
Solo etc..
Multiplayer etc...
local game: Map, Replay, Hot seat ,Local etc..
Editor: Map ,replay ,painting ,tools etc..

Try each element and sub-element (button, gameplay, language,display ,import and export elements,server,manialink, audio,chat,paramettre,planet,editomap,mediatracker,mesh modeler,channels, ALL ) during 2-3 hours and you will see that the game is not finished.
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Miss
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by Miss » 15 Apr 2019, 15:15

JakJak wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 14:26
Little Ex: (No differentiation for, the budget, direction, destination, vision, of the game):
-Cs Series, L4dead, Serieportal
-Rocket league
-Northegard,AOE,AOM,AOM,Serie civilsation
-Far cry series ,Fallout series ,Bioshok series-metro series
-Limbo ,Grey, Abzu,Inside ,Life is strange
-Rust,Fortnite,
-Lol-Dota2
etc......
(I have never had and seen any major problems in this list of games, developers work on old problems in their games)
Sure, these are good examples that do actually support my point. Most of these games are continually updated to add content. Would you say that Fortnite is "finished"? Why is Epic Games adding more content every season if the game is "finished"? Same thing for nearly all the games you're listing here, they're all still getting regular updates, and yes, that also means bugfixes. (And sure, games like Life is Strange could probably be called "finished" to a certain degree, but those kinds of single player story games often don't need constant iteration like TrackMania or Fortnite.)

It seems like your definition of "finished" is actually a "state of constant active development where bugs are addressed quickly". Am I right?

It's also a little bit unfair to compare giant AAA studios with millions/billions of dollars and hundreds/thousands of employees, to a much smaller studio like Nadeo, so I'm not sure why you say "no differentation for the budget".
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TMarc
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by TMarc » 15 Apr 2019, 15:26

In Steam I can often see updates for the games I have there, and I would say that the size or name of the game developper team in most cases does not tell anything about the updates.
There have been updates for VR support in Portal2 and The Talos Principle, but also games like Machinarium are still getting updates from time to time.
Nadeo has perhaps updated their own games even the most, due to the long history.
If a game is not getting updates anymore, like Trackmania Nations Forever, then this is a sign that this has reached its end of life, at least from developpers side.
And when you look at early access games which apparently never finish, it is simply because they get more and more features, and the developpers lose the focus, the time and the money to fix everything reported.

There is not any game which does not have errors, the question is only if it is directly affecting the players or not.
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by Demented » 15 Apr 2019, 15:37

@ Miss - Good points and well thought logical answers.
I agree with Miss, JakJak and Tmarc. No game is ever truly finished but rather reaches a satisfactory point where developers can move onto other things.
TM2 is not there yet but really close & I don't think anyone expects them to drop everything and finish it (Right Now).
To both your points, TMUF and it's 7 envirimnents reached a good point to call it finished, but later while pulling Stadium into TM2 a few persisting issues were addressed and dealt with.
All in all, I'm confident that Nadeo knows what they are doing and will get to the loose ends when it's appropriate. Even with the recent expansions they are still a relatively small team and that means things can take time. However, I also understand that some things seem to feel like they have been brushed aside and left collecting dust a bit.
I like your idea of a public Bug Tracker (Master List).
Also, I like how this topic was presented and responded to. It's not a bitchy rant, nor a put down toward anyone opinions. I think healthy debates and constructive thoughts help development teams prioritize and grow things.
:D
In all honesty, I'd love to see things get hammered out but if the game never changed from this day forward, it would still be my favorite.
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Miss
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by Miss » 15 Apr 2019, 17:20

I agree, these kind of discussions are indeed one of the more healthier ones. :thx:
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by Alinoa » 16 Apr 2019, 15:41

Hi,
Miss wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 17:20
I agree, these kind of discussions are indeed one of the more healthier ones. :thx:
I totally agree with you Miss and thanks all for contributing to have constructive discussions :thumbsup:

Regarding the bug tracker, for players who haven't read discussions in the Shootmania thread, here is an answer from Hylis:
Hylis wrote:
30 Jan 2019, 22:18
Maybe yes, maybe no. Report list can become quite long and not accurate after some updates, requiring to start all over again or "updating", which is not really in the mood of the players, and I can understand. I use different tools for different phase, and here, I need to have the top 5 "gut feeling" of what need to be urgent / priority to be fixed. But it's really up to everybody to find his best way to handle things. Even at the studio, if some prefer one tool, I will encourage using it.
I can add that we also have a great list of bugs provided by Eyebo and Shootmania players, which also help us to prioritize things as the team works on new stuff a lot as well.
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by JakJak » 16 Apr 2019, 19:07

Hello ;)
Thank you all for your answers on this subject.
Thank you for making this topic interesting :thx:
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I'm going to answer miss first here:

-I may express myself badly, but a finite game (finished) represents a finite game in its entirety that works in any situation.
( All must work in all categories of the game) which is not the case of the trackmania² game concerning me.

-A game is still under construction I know it well, but this basic structure must be finished.
You take the example of Fortinte:
Fornite is a finished game, adding content is just a bonus for the player.

-No, you twisted my definition of a finite game: it's a game that works in any type of situation

-I compare in my list of games all types of games (small and large budget) there is nothing unfair about that,
-In my list and in general many small games (small team) update the different problems related to their games. (ex: Northegard -Solo & multiplayers)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer for tmMarc :

-Thank you for your explanations, they are good analyses
+1 concerning your last sentence; Trackmania issues directly affect and affect a lot of players.

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Answer for Demented
Thank you;)
-Your general analysis is entirely in line with my ideas expressed here.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Alinoa for putting Hylis' point of view
**-In general, it could be interesting to have a bug tracker list.
( either directly in the game via the parameters (or tools) or via the forum or any other visual way ,in a simple way, accessible to all Tm²-Sm customers)
I had already done a post on this subject with negative answers on this idea: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=44441


1 This would help to regulate impatience or frustration about players' expectations of updates (for the curious, I think there are many of us)
2 creates more direct communication
3 Knowing in which direction Nadeo is going
4 Creates trust ( the most important)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My question on this subject is always present ^^
Last edited by JakJak on 17 Apr 2019, 14:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Miss
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Re: [Question] When are you going to finish Trackmania²?

Post by Miss » 16 Apr 2019, 21:46

JakJak wrote:
16 Apr 2019, 19:07
( All must work in all categories of the game) which is not the case of the trackmania² game concerning me.
So what makes you think TrackMania is not a game that "works"? Looking back at your first post:
JakJak wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 11:29
-Since Mp3, Mp4 and Mp4.1, there have been many problems for the experience of all the players gathered. ( bugs ( internal, external), crashes, etc..
You can't really claim that games like Fortnite are bug-free or crash-free. So I still don't understand what you mean by "finished".
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