Valley learns from Canyon?

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Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by Soprah » 27 Jan 2013, 13:43

Hello trackmania fans,

I just wanna know if Valley learns from Canyon? I don't have to mention that Canyon was really successful.. I hadn't so much fun with that game.. :/

Did Nadeo improve their skill from their fails in Canyon?

I don't want that Valley or even a new environment from trackmania will contain these bad mistakes from canyon..

Anybody know something?

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Re: Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by infarctus » 27 Jan 2013, 14:03

If bad mistakes means awesome car, awesome drift/gameplay, awesome landscape and awesome fun, i totally agree with you
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Re: Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by Soprah » 27 Jan 2013, 14:06

That is your opinion from canyon..
But i know many players that are just thinkin like me

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Re: Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by Timmeh7 » 27 Jan 2013, 14:23

You should specify those 'bad mistakes' ;)

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Re: Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by firstdriver » 27 Jan 2013, 16:56

Got to admit that its not as much fun as TMUF .... I don't think I've played Canyons more that 6-12 hours in the lat 12 months ... There is just no spark there for me. Roll on Valley and Stadium :)



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Re: Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by Hylis » 27 Jan 2013, 17:08

Valley and Canyon should have different gameplay, and Trackmania should improve on fixes and audience first. I think we have a good plan for all this, and it was easy to determine earlier. I don't think many mistakes were made. We had to launch Canyon 'soon' even if it sounded 'late' at that time and we worked hard to make a lot of things after. I may try to reduce the delay of the official tries, I don't know.

As for the gameplay, it is not mistakes I think, but more choices and taste. I made it to be a good combo, a good variation with other gameplays, and this is why it ends up to be polarizing for some people. It is hard to make sweet and bitter at the same time. Trackmania 2 is also different from TMUF in some ways, since TMUF is more top down view and Trackmania 2 is more immersive. It creates some differences, but I also think that if Trackmania 2 was Trackmania 1 and vice versa, we would have some comments as well. Trackmania 2 is interesting also because it is different after 10 years of the Trackmania 1.

Not trying to say we did well, just trying to say that there is mainly a timing and audience issue, both that are going to be solved soon, I hope.

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Re: Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by Romain42 » 27 Jan 2013, 17:38

What do you mean by "top-down" view about TMUF?

TMUF had 7 very different gameplays and i think that was a significant part of its fun (and of its lifetime, which was clearly far longer than usual games). On the other hand, some games such as the Gran Turismo series have a quite consistent gameplay over the versions/years, and that consistency might be part of their success as well (one could see stadium² being close to stadium as the same kind of principle).

Regarding that, the question might be: will Valley be close to Canyon (which could make loyal those who liked Canyon) or rather very different in order to bring diversity (which could make come back those who sticked on TMUF)? Does Valley claims to be the successor of Canyon (the next-generation game) or will it complete Canyon on an equal footing?

By the way, i don't believe TMUF is less immersive than Canyon, especially Coast that has a really unique atmosphere... Of course, Canyon has better graphics and a more sophisticated gameplay, but i'd call that advanced or modern rather than immersive.

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Re: Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by Poutrel » 27 Jan 2013, 20:47

I just can't wait to see Valley in ManiaPlanet. I have to admit that I was a bit sceptical and disapointed about Canyon (the game, not the envi), 'cause it looked like a lighter version of TMUF, with additional features of course, but also a loss of few little features (haven't one in mind though).

But now, with MP 2.0, and all the updates made to Canyon, I'm really confindent about the future and the fun of ManiaPlanet, especially with 3 new envs (including Storm) coming soon. I'm a bit tired to see Stadium everywhere, but well, it's nice to have another enviro :D

Talking of the fun of Canyon, it's true that I don't have as much fun as on TMUF, but I know why, and it's not Nadeo's fault : it's nostalgia. I really miss the community members that I knew (2 006-2 010). An important part of "old" TM players (let's say before 2 008, or 2 010) left. Unfortunately, it happens shortly after Ubisoft and the very first TM2 announcement. There's still very nice people playing TMUF and Canyon, don't be offended ;D But this community was a huge source of fun.

SO, let's 2 013 be the ManiaYear Hylis predicted, enjoying the 4 MP environnements! :yes:

EDIT : Romain, Hylis meant the camera on the TMUF envs was a bit higher and focused nearer to the front of the car than in Canyon.

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Re: Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by eyebo » 27 Jan 2013, 22:36

Hylis wrote:As for the gameplay, it is not mistakes I think, but more choices and taste. I made it to be a good combo, a good variation with other gameplays, and this is why it ends up to be polarizing for some people. It is hard to make sweet and bitter at the same time.
This is an excellent quote.

And I believe you could be talking about any TrackMania environment when you said that.

Valley will very likely also be a polarizing environment. Some people will love it, others may not. Right now some people seem to hold it out as their hope of the "perfect TM environment". I worry that people may build up their expectations too high.

The important thing is that Valley brings a good variation to the gameplay of other environments. I worry most that the blocks will be designed in such a way that allows new transitions to be discovered with the blocks for years to come. Canyon blocks are seemingly "too beautiful". There's a lot of stuff around the edges of them that makes it hard to create new transitions. Still, people like s'habba, are finding new transitions weekly... and making incredibly fun tracks.

Transitions are one of the things that kept the track building scene in TMUF alive for years after it's initial release. I can't underestimate how important it is to maximize the possibilities there are with the blocks. I think the addition of the latest blocks in ShootMania (beta2.0 and beta2.1) shows that Nadeo still understands this.

The reason my profile picture says "eyebo love Valley" is because I know that I will stick with it long enough to learn to love it. I choose to appreciate the beauty of each gameplay for what it is. And I find the challenge of learning a new environment to be fun.

Of course I'm not as good in Coast as I am in Canyon. I'm not as good in Rally as I am in Island. And I'm not as good in Stadium as I am in Bay. But I have fun in all of these because I enjoy the challenge that each environment brings.

I didn't used to be so broad minded though. If I may make an analogy with music: Growing up, throughout my teen years, I only listened to Country music. I was repulsed at the thought of listening to almost anything else. If it wasn't produced with analog instruments with meaningful lyrics, then it wasn't for me. It simply sounded wrong to my ears. I was very strict about this. But somewhere along the way I learned that there was merit to other types of music, and although I still avoid certain types of music on moral grounds, I enjoy a much broader variety than I used to. This brings me enjoyment.

Perhaps that analogy can be applied to TrackMania. Some are simply more picky about which environments they want to drive. If it doesn't immediately give them pleasure to play it, then they avoid it. And so they may never know the enjoyment of learning to enjoy something new.

Ever heard the term "acquired taste"? It's when you don't like something at first, but the more you're exposed to it and try it, the more you learn to like it... even love it. Usually we apply it to food or music... but even some games are like that.

It's been my experience that acquired tastes are much more satisfying than those things that you tend to like immediately. It's as if you've discovered the secret ingredient. It makes it more special. And usually, because it takes longer to understand, it is a deeper enjoyment.

It doesn't mean you have to learn to like everything, but perhaps we should give some things more of a chance before discarding them.

We live in a very fast paced world of instant gratification and a million things to distract us. It's good to slow down once and a while and try something new... something we may not enjoy at first... perhaps because we don't understand it or because we're not good at it. But with time and skill it may become a joyful thing to do. I'm not saying it has to be a TM environment. It could be learning to play trombone, or guitar, or learning how to cook. Learning new skills can, with persistence, bring a lot of joy.
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Re: Valley learns from Canyon?

Post by Omnixor » 27 Jan 2013, 22:41

you might've just changed my future life with this post, no jokes.
- staff head of ESL TM²Stadium -

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