Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

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zarexz

Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by zarexz » 22 Mar 2013, 12:41

I have to agree with Papychampy and Akbalder.
I do also agree that there could be more freedom in placing blocks next to and over one and other.

But blockmixing the way you can with Unlimiter is just too much. I personlay hate the flickering textures but I hate it even more when there's all sorts of crap mixed into the roads like trees or lightpost sticking out of the driving line or just next to it. Tracks like that get an instant -- vote from me.

I vote for things like in this picture to be possible aslnong nothing is going to flicker.
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PapyChampy
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Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by PapyChampy » 22 Mar 2013, 12:44

The ability to build transitions/find solutions in order to deal with the editor's limits are also what makes the beauty of it. =)

Some "restrictive areas" for some blocks are a bit too large, though.

If you ask me, a step forward would be the ability to use smaller squares to place blocks (such as the offzone in SM.)

@ zarexz : the problem with this example is that some blocks overlap, and others don't. So the standard overlapping standard is defined by the biggest block available. (generally an arena square, as it occupies the biggest space possible in the editor grid.)
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BLiNNeMaNS
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Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by BLiNNeMaNS » 22 Mar 2013, 13:16

i think the easiest way to make blockplacement work better is to remove the lips..
now a lip counts as a whole blocklength, making loads of transitions impossible.

In my opinion those lips shouldn't be the bottleneck in the 1st place as they are only a helper tool for starting trackbuilders.


I agree on not adding an unlimiter tool without restrictions.
Flickering blocks, lucky glitches, invisible floors, falling through the floor into nothingness are bad, and annoying.

However, it gets really bad when you give ppl the possibility to combine ring checkpoints to brighten up the lights..
ppl get banned by anti cheat scripts as they get 0 sec between cp's.

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HawkGer
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Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by HawkGer » 22 Mar 2013, 13:23

Edit: ups...Meuh21 already posted this idea on the first page...should have read those posts first...

I think we are never gonna see an Unlimiter tool in the official titles. But what I think would be very realistic would be to enable an Unlimiter tool for custom titles...have the author of the title decide if he wants to have it turned on or off.
It would be the best compromise imo. People who don't like blockmixed tracks can stay in the official title and everyone else can build their own titles and communities around it....
Also grid snapping adjustment of standard blocks in titles would be great to have.
Last edited by HawkGer on 22 Mar 2013, 13:41, edited 2 times in total.

Romain42
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Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by Romain42 » 22 Mar 2013, 13:36

PapyChampy wrote:I fear that it would be used badly in around 90 % of maps. (Flickering textures, colliding blocks, etc...)
It has already been widely bad used for ages. On another hand some mappers are so bad that you should even prohibit them to use the normal editor if you wanted to prevent bad maps.
PapyChampy wrote:Editors limitations are also here for a reason. To keep recognizable patterns, so that players in general know what to expect.
Nevertheless, those limitations, associated with the lack of some blocks, are a too restrictive. Basically, we waited for years the cliff-side checkpoints in coast and several canyon blocks have no symetric version (only left or only right turn exist).

I think the "home made blocks" could even be a more powerful tool than TM-Unlimiter. But until now it didn't developped very much and we can see only few objects in Maniapark. I am sure we can archieve much better results than that, it would be amazing to have custom blocks that can connect to others. For instance, it could enable us to create the transitions that lack or even new types of blocks (the intermediate width roads between the small and the GP, for instance).

Last but not least, when you talk about recognizable patterns and knowing what to expect, i could answer some people like to be surprised by innovations they didn't expect. And this could also be part of the mapping art.
Akbalder wrote:I would sign a petition to prohibit Unlimiter Tool. :twisted:
Almost all the map done with it are bad...
I would sign a petition to prohibit the useless and extremist posts. If everyone could prohibit everything displeases him/her, there wouldn't be many things still allowed... I don't like most of the TM-Unlimiter maps either, but it can be useful sometimes.
meuh21 wrote:Maybe the solution is, like for objects, to allow free editor only in titles. So the originals environements will stay "pure".
This seems a bit too radical to me. I think there are two possibles uses of the mixmapping.

You can input hexa modifications at small doses in "normal" maps, to fix a cut, to make a spectific transition you really want, for instance. In this use, you build the map with the normal editor and you use the TM-Unlimiter only when you need it for some spots. The map will not be that surprising for a casual player and its overall layout will remain close to a normal map. This use could be enabled in normal maps.

Besides, there are the maps that are specifically based on Unlimiter, of which bennnnnnn was the pioneer and some others followed when it became easy. It becomes a map-style in itself and it could even become an option in MX (choose between normal, FS, Tech, Lol, blabla, Hexa). I wouldn't mind to have those ones gathered in a title-pack and separated from the rest.
meuh21 wrote:Without Unlimiter mapping is the only field with very restricted possibilities.
The physics of the car is still 100% restricted... And you may underestimate a little bit the possible diversity of maps even without the use of this tool. Our language is restricted to 26 letters, but we can still reach the infinite with it.

Nevertheless, i think the blocks of Canyon are rather harder to use than those of former environments, partly because they have a large size. PapyChampy may remember the teamspeak talk we had about this concern. Small blocks enables far more combinations. I believe the GP blocks of coast are the better picture, the diversity of driving lines is just infinite with them and you can allways find new things.

I could do a comparison with the Chinese letters: as they don't (roughly) stand for a sound but rather for a word or an idea, you need more of them to have a proper language. So it's mostly a choice between lots of big blocks or few small ones. But should we remove the grammar rules?
meuh21 wrote:Use the MT is difficult, make a object is difficult, create a model is difficult, etc. Why build a map should be only easy ?
Ironically, TM-Unlimiter really makes easy something that could remain difficult, which was way more difficult before the TM-Unlimiter release. Maybe, precisely, people ask for TM-Unlimiter because they want the mapping to remain easier than the other kind of creations, even the hexadecimal mapping.
PapyChampy wrote:The ability to build transitions/find solutions in order to deal with the editor's limits are also what makes the beauty of it. =)
And it led us to another mapping style, based only or almost on the transitions. It became a bit annoying to me, because some people seem involved in a competition, like "who among us will find the ulitmate transition?", which leads to lots of transitions that are rough, unflowy, ugly or simply inappropriate for real racing. I don't claim to forbid transitions, though. :mrgreen:
PapyChampy wrote:Some "restrictive areas" for some blocks are a bit too large, though.
x1000, +1000
PapyChampy wrote:@ zarexz : the problem with this example is that some blocks overlap, and others don't. So the standard overlapping standard is defined by the biggest block available. (generally an arena square, as it occupies the biggest space possible in the editor grid.)
Well, i don't know much about the technical issues here. But i thought it should be possible to know the space that is fullfilled with matter, and then to just forbid a same point to be fullfilled by matter from two blocks. It doesn't seem complex on the mathematical side, but i don't know how it is computated, so maybe it's complex or even unmanageable.
BLiNNeMaNS wrote:In my opinion those lips shouldn't be the bottleneck in the 1st place as they are only a helper tool for starting trackbuilders.
Sometimes you can make some textures disappear if you don't respect those lips rules with unlimiter. I don't remember an example in Canyon, but the lip face of the grey blocks of island disappeared if you put something else than the right block in front of them. Which leads to an ugly hole to the void. I can't assure this kind of issue couldn't happen on Canyon or any future environment.
Last edited by Romain42 on 22 Mar 2013, 13:48, edited 4 times in total.

occam
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Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by occam » 22 Mar 2013, 13:38

con
Akbalder wrote:I would sign a petition to prohibit Unlimiter Tool: twisted : Almost all the map done with it are bad...
balanced
Voyager006 wrote:...break from TMUnlimiter is good...wouldn't mind ...tool...for advanced mappers...
PapyChampy wrote:...useful to...experienced mappers[...]likely to destroy the coherence...used badly(Flickering textures, colliding blocks,...) [reasons for] Editors limitations: keep recognizable patterns...
zarexz wrote:...agree that there could be more freedom in placing blocks...I hate flickering textures...I hate...crap mixed into roads...
BLiNNeMaNS wrote:...remove the lips...not adding an unlimiter tool without restrictions...Flickering blocks, lucky glitches, invisible floors, ...,bad, and annoying...bad to combine ring CPs...ppl get banned
HawkGer wrote:...we never see an Unlimiter tool in the official titles...realistic would be to enable an Unlimiter tool for custom titles...would be the best compromise imo...grid snapping adjustment...would be great...
pro
wraith wrote:+1 for the Offical TM Unlimiter tool Option button
Vii wrote:I agree, big fat Plus one! : thumbsup :
Flighthigh wrote:i sign it up Wraith. : thumbsup : ...
Taronium wrote:...Count me in! :thumbsup:
totoph wrote:+ 1...I sign too.
"freedom-fighter^^ meuh21" and hylis in the other thread
meuh21 wrote: ... "liberate the editor"...Hylis wrote this about a free editor :
Hylis wrote:
serujio wrote:Quick question:
- Why not "unlimit" the track editor like TMUnlimiter does, and make this way of building tracks "official"?
if it is official, it has consequences:
- support of compatibility
- online official glitches, and bugs (with potential request to remove them) that would distruss the user
- official complexity for mappers who would feel obliged to use it to be at the level of others etc.
Hylis wrote:zarexz, this is a path that we are looking at indeed, but is still complex...

+1 for the Offical TM Unlimiter tool Option button
..."Free the editor", in french: http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic. ... &hilit=mle
meuh21 wrote: Maybe the solution is, like for objects, to allow free editor only in titles.
After taking all that has been written into account, i suggest you start a petition for an
'TM²Stadium Unlimit.exp Title Pack' :- > There already exists an official Royal_exp and an Elite_exp Title Pack, so having an official Exp(erimental) Title Pack would not be unprecedented and all the counter arguments i saw would be rendered mute with a Title Pack. Might be an elegant solution for the colliding interests :thx: :- )
 
Last edited by occam on 22 Mar 2013, 13:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Hylis
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Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by Hylis » 22 Mar 2013, 13:43

the title of the topic is much less interesting than the discussion itself

We would like to work on it, but are working on other stuff at the moment. It means that we will probably do something for this one day, but we will do cooler stuff before. Haha, I am just provocating here :mrgreen: (but I am serious, it is to cool)

Romain42
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Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by Romain42 » 22 Mar 2013, 13:51

Hylis wrote:We would like to work on it, but are working on other stuff at the moment. It means that we will probably do something for this one day, but we will do cooler stuff before. Haha, I am just provocating here :mrgreen: (but I am serious, it is to cool)
Like multi-environment servers? I like to provocate too. :P

Anyway, yes i think it's better to have things sequenced and no all the works in process at the same time. Gogogo and let us know about those new stuff when it's ready. :thumbsup:

rachovolker
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Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by rachovolker » 22 Mar 2013, 17:57

I don't like the idea of a free and official Unlimiter tool. I just don't like those mixed maps.

On the other hand, I really like the ideas of Blinnemans and Papy Champy. Decreasing the "virtual" blocksize to "offzone-like" mini-blocks that enable us to combine non-touching blocks. Plus, those lips on the road/GP-blocks can be annoying. Especially while building scenery.
Glad to see, that Hylis is thinking about something. :thumbsup:

Ucancry
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Re: Official Petition we need Unlimiter Tool

Post by Ucancry » 22 Mar 2013, 21:27

Bonjour/bonsoir à tous.

Je comprend que vous ayez des réserves, mais en quoi le fait de poser 2 demi-blocks/grilles/etc... qui ne ce touchent pas sur le même emplacement pose problème?

En prenant soins de ce que l'on fait il n'y a pas de clipping ou flickering. J'ai passé des heures à comprendre les mécanismes du jeux pour justement éviter les murs invisible, les crashs de l’éditeur et tous les autres problèmes lié à l'unlimiter.

En tant qu'ancien mappeur de TimeAttack et récemment mappeur de TImeTrial/Obstacle je paierais pour avoir un unlimiter fonctionnel sous SM.

Bref vous avez gagné Arc à stop ses travaux, je suis dégoûter et en même temps je comprend vos arguments...

Cordialement, Ucc.

PS : +1 for the Offical TM Unlimiter tool Option button
Yes u can.

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