Stadium eSport Development

[w1lla]

in my opinion, professional eSport on TM can only be a solo one. I mean no team mode with real eSport (with big cash prizes)
At that moment, only live events purpose something good. Zotac system is crap and 1v1 boring as hell. I like ESL, but i have to admit that it's the same there. No 1v1v1v1 cup mode, and the big Team events do not suit to eSport for sure (too many players in teams, too many maps) They are definitly amazing, but can not bring a professional side with this shape. If teams were limited to 3 players (or 5) it coul be better, but i definitly think that 1v1v1v1 cupmode shall stay, as it is the better mode for everyone.

But anyway i see no reason for stad or canyon or valley to fail, since every years there are many events all aroun the world (the world of europe xD), and always bring an amazing show...

You mean the 1v1v1v1 ESL Cupmode provided here in the old days?

http://www.esl.eu/eu/tmnf/news/115154/T ... -Cupmode-/

Maybe its something for plugin developers to work on it for the different server controllers to bring this life back.

Maybe it's possible to make it as a gamemode for TrackMania 2...?
Dunno if the original Cup mode can be found somewhere?

The original Cupmode is based on rounds.

Did a other way of cupmode in Maniascript based on the TMSplitScreen code.

It works with quite well but has a bug if players reach the limit.

Also it has a +1 if you drive a match score.

Source:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/m1ci211nhydepix/KsEdcSWyoI

[Hylis]

Rasque,

There has been ESWC and WCG for years on Trackmania, ESL pro series in different countries, EMS etc. So, the game was there, the competitions, the players etc. But I think there is a need to evolve in a big way: welcome more players, think to tell the story to spectators, think about the rankings, the odds, the regions, the ingame communication etc. This is no a question of cashprize, Painkiller made the demonstration long time ago.

When the first goal will be to bring a lot more people to play and watch, instead of debating of cash prize, then we will be on good track. I met many times ESL over last years, going directly to Germany or welcoming them in France. Every system we design, we think about a way for ESL to be capable to link with it. Being straight from ingame is a big plus and key to bring a lot more people. I have been neutral for years because of ET Portal and ESL. I did not wanted to interfer and I think it is much better like that. For example, we are designing Matchmaking to be plug able to versus or that other players can make their own one.

About marketing exposures, a first marketing event has been help at Dreamhack, by the local office of Ubisoft, while I was not even warned before. Negative players made more than that about it. Nations out of it way before it was decided even if some players tried to link this with that. It was just a plus instead of having no Trackmania at all. I don't think cashprize makes eSport, and this is also why I don't care that events with money are being held to promote the game. Some players understand it well, come, play, try to win and then resume what they should first think about: studies, work and fun in games or else.

* Unite the community: Storm, Stadium, Canyon, Valley, Noobs, Experts, Devs etc. People who try to put barriers between games and insult other people are the ones to be told first. Instead of dividing, help the other community to grow. One game can be an opportunities for another one by bringing new admins, awaraness on the community from decision maker, players by looking at the different games, viewers in mixed events etc.

* Open competition to more players. Use Maniaplanet system to make competition of a great comfort, in order to bring a lot of people to enjoy competition and have interest into it. Let them have a chance to win with more regional competitions, think the amateur pyramid going to pro level. First of a 128 is already small compared, so the cashprize of the first of 128 of 10 competitions is not the debate here. Have 10 000 players try the competition and they will look at the first much more. And to do this, you need to use the tools, the dedicated manager ones, scripts, communication facilities, calendars etc.

* Improve the story. Try to make the circuit interesting even to people who do not play the game. It means to have a better main structure. Have an official calendar, ranking etc. Try to put regions attached more to players in each tournament. Team based competition between region, even 2vs2, are good for people to follow for less anonymous reasons. Put more emphasis on players, for their story, especially if they are able to say positive things

I hope you understand that it would be easier to support players that believe more in the list I made here. Having more players and spectators should be the priority, much before the cashprize. So, when someone insult us about our passion and talks about dividing cashprize, which means reducing the number of winners as well, how can I support this? I like it more when there are more players, more competitions, more rewards (not the size of it) etc. And I like it when players are honnest and not afraid to tell other players that they are wrong, while staying polite, the same way they are telling us. You can think it is gimmick, but for me, it is a priority for the scene.

Infarctus said it that the competition on TM is here to stay. And I believe it since it is simply based on the desire of players to compete online or offline. I believe that the size of the competition and of the scene depends on brillant, positive and constructive players that use their time to make this happen, like many of you. Much much more than skidmarks And our role is to make the best game and system to do that. We made Maniaplanet and TM² Stadium and still have work to do. And like you can see, I am still there on week ends, with passion.

Edit: I forgot

I think I'm really happy that I only play for "fun" instead of these competitions. I prefer competitions where you can win coppers/planets, Tags or whatever. Playing for money is for something, which I don't like, but this is relative of the peoples who do this.

NADEO mades one of the best game which I know and played in my life, I know Trackmania since 2005 and starts to play online since 2008, and I still play it, because I have "fun" (mostly). Trackmania nations ESWC was a "clean" esport game for sure and TrackmaniaNations was "clean" too. But we talk here about MANIAPLANET and not TrackmaniaNations. Maniaplanet is an other system which allow you to download Titles from different games, Race/Shooter/RPG (?). The task of Maniaplanet is to share everything with everyone in differents Titles, I don't have to continue this. There exist still a Youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJfkDzd5LAQ)

Nadeo can use the "eSport" things to advertise his titles from his games, but the "eSport" have to decide if they allow this. If people really believe there is problem because of "slots" or something like that, then is this not a problem for Nadeo. All these eSports competions have to decide by himself If they want to make a tournament with money or not. The eSports is in my opinion "just a small" part in Trackmania/Maniaplanet and a Freegame like TMNF will be played "forever". If the "eSports" want or not.

Well, I don't know very much about the "eSport" series, but to complain about a game, which this goal is to connect poeple to each other ("new chatfunction for example") is something which I can't understand. Anyway I saw on the frontpage in stadium etc. a feed where a lot of Teams etc. who make a contest. I don't see there any problems in the future.
Stadium is an enviroment, which "was" make for the "eSports" but is still now in Maniaplanet - Maniaplanet has other goals then TMN(F). In this case, the groups and teams have to think about to create a competition with the prizes whatever these are.

Gamescom, gamerassembly and whatever are a part of advertising from Maniaplanet too, people which are interest will buy this, people who like this idea will buy this, people who played (only) for "eSports" have to think about this. I will repeat me, but when the eSport organise a tournament with money and some other stuff for Canyon, Stadium and Valley, then is this not a problem of Nadeo - It's my opinion.

[Romain42]

A lot of things that are really interesting in this thread. So here is a very long message (i tried to react at each thing that was important to me, but i'm sure i missed some of them... Maybe i'll add contents in few days).

I named some more important feature in the list above, such as in game competition list. ESL can make their competition official, put the stream links, the calendars and rankings. We can know who is ranked first in the world and he can have his sponsors in game etc.

Hello Hylis,

Well, maybe i missed some information elsewhere but this feature (the competitions list) remains a bit mysterious to me, although it's a good idea and i want to try it and to test its potential. I'll try to give you a feedback once it's tested. By telling that one can make one's competition official, what do you mean exactly? What is an official competition? What are the criterias that can make a competition official or not?

Big prize pools are a consequence of big eSport, it is not the way around.

I'm more than glad when you tell this, because it fits my feeling at 100%. It's something we should highlight more. i've had lots of talks with people that expect cash prizes or demand them... Most of them seem to not realize there is a business under that. They seem to believe cashprizes will come even if they don't involve to highlight the game. Well, i have to say my impression is mostly made from Canyon because i don't play Stadium in tournaments. But is it that different from a title to another?

it would be more interesting to have something like "Acer|FB, first of Sweden - 4th in the world, versus Dignitas|Bergie first of Norway - 2nd in the world" instead of what we have today "Acer|FB vs Dignitas|Bergie"

Do you mean you want to create an official ranking that would merge the results of the biggest competitions? Such as TM-Rankings made in the past years, for instance, but official?

Another thing that could matter is: such a ranking will soon become an opponent of the current ladder. Don't you fear people might be confused seing two different rankings that don't highlight the same players?

1. Ranking will be based on many things, such as people who where in there and popularity for players (like vote) so all competitions can be put inside the system. Sub rankings could be made after maybe.

Thus it seems it's actually not only about competition. To be honest, i don't really trust in a ladder that would merge so different things as fame and results to competitions... It's just like if you tell that Vettel is the F1 World Champion, but Raikkonen is the most supported by the fans. But as Alonso manages to have the best balance between both, you'd put him 1st? But 1st of what?

Maybe i didn't understand well, though.

* Try to make the circuit interesting even to people who do not play the game. It means to have a better main structure. Have an official calendar, ranking etc. Try to put regions attached more to players in each tournament. Team based competition between region, even 2vs2, are good for people to follow for less anonymous reasons.

You know, most of the tournaments are run by unpaid volunteers that have a professional and personal life besides the game. It's quite hard to have a predictable overview of the availabilty of everybody in those circumstances. For instance, we at ET try to give calendars in advance, but sometimes i think it's better to say nothing than to promise something we are not sure to archieve.

By the way, i think the NC and TNC are a good first step on this side, although it would be really hard to gather enough people for regional cups, except maybe in France and Germany.

I know it is a lot on the side of players, but this is the type of things I believe are important.

Sure. Unfortunately it's not the trend of our times... Lots of players still prefer to complain rather than to involve in initiatives. Maybe it's easier.
Nevertheless you're a bit hasch about frostBeule. Although i can understand his way of bullying you is not a good example, he involved in several known community organizations. Look at his work at Mania-Actu, for instance. If all the guys that flame everything were that involved, we would already make a big step foreward.

And I'm simply stating that if there were other developers who also made esports racing games, then that would benefit everyone really. Competition is always good.

Why is the competition good between developpers, but not between environments? If you consider the lack of competition produces the lack of efforts, shouldn't you be glad Stadium gets an opposition, that could motivate the Stadium community to involve even better?

Furthermore, Stadium is still more supported by Nadeo than the other environments. When Valley, Canyon (and i could add Rally, Desert, Snow, Island, Bay and Coast) will have free versions for everyone, we'll start to talk about competition between environments...

4. More participants and spectators is the #1 thing that TM requires. I understand clearly that champions would like to be more sure to win when they go to a competition, but then they would be alone if they are sure and nobody would watch matches that we know all the outcome at the time attack seeding.

In lots of sports, some competitors have really low chances to win, if not zero. How would you rate the chances Caterham and Marussia have to win the F1 Championship, for instance? But it doesn't prevent them to take part. Maybe the simple fact to be featured on a highlighted scene can bring sponsors. What about TM? Maybe passion plays an important role too... I don't think it's relevant to try to give a chance to players that are just not good enough. It is the difference between a sport and a show...

Again, I think the organizers have a role to play in order to welcome many players and make matches dramatically more interesting to watch. I spent two years to convince that rounds mode where less interesting for that than cup mode. Some players are making lose a lot of time to others, because they don't want to lose in competition when they spent a lot of time training.

If a guy trained more than his opponent, he deserves more to win (if equally talented). The cup mode is rejected by some players because it is understood as a bit too random. Even in tournaments that are played for fun, without any cash prize, the rounds mode is really liked and supported. You explain the rejection of the cup mode by the frustration one could experience when he loses despite of the training. But what do you think about the guy that win only thanks to a big luck? It happens sometimes, and the fact you feel you stole your win destroys all the fun in it. This is just a bad-taste win. The rounds mode have the advantage to provide a clear winner, that is above the debates in any case. Well, it doesn't mean the rounds mode is better than the cup mode: the latter is more thrilling for sure. Each one have its own advantages, and a choice between them establishes a priority between sport and show.

When the first goal will be to bring a lot more people to play and watch, instead of debating of cash prize, then we will be on good track. I met many times ESL over last years, going directly to Germany or welcoming them in France. Every system we design, we think about a way for ESL to be capable to link with it. Being straight from ingame is a big plus and key to bring a lot more people. I have been neutral for years because of ET Portal and ESL. I did not wanted to interfer and I think it is much better like that. For example, we are designing Matchmaking to be plug able to versus or that other players can make their own one.

Neutrality is a good thing as long as there are several organizations.

By the way, it is interesting to see you include new tools for competitions while thinking about us. Nevertheless, it's a bit a pity that you didn't got feedback from us (both ET and ESL) before to build those tools. Probably the fault is partly on us: we should have expressed our needs earlier. But finally, without talks the tools have too much risks to not be adequate enough.

* Unite the community: Storm, Stadium, Canyon, Valley, Noobs, Experts, Devs etc. People who try to put barriers between games and insult other people are the ones to be told first. Instead of dividing, help the other community to grow. One game can be an opportunities for another one by bringing new admins, awaraness on the community from decision maker, players by looking at the different games, viewers in mixed events etc.

The multi-environment servers would help to destroy the boundaries between the communities. I think Maniaplanet needs this feature to be really united, to bring something really different to steam, for instance. It's not just about having several games gathered in a single launcher, it's about having several games united in a single community then.

[Gradio]

Quietly taking notes.

[Hylis]

Romain42,

Here is the link to create a competition: https://player.maniaplanet.com/competitions/
we have work to do to support, educate and make that everything works fine, but that's the principle

Votes will be for competitions, not for players, of course. If 600 players are saying that one competition is the most important, and that #1 to #8 attends, maybe it can bring more points the players who win it than an online competition with 10 votes and only #2 attends in the top 8, for example.

When you say that things are handle by people with other things to do, I totally agree. And that there could be a lack to organize regional stuff. But, it is also a key attitude to welcome new organizers, to create some places to be organized etc. If you say that you look for someone to handle a country, it is better than if you don't, since you may have a good manager to bring something interesting to the story. But it is also a cycle process: you need to start to have, but you need already many people to start. So, the goal is to start slowly and see what is taking. You may also make the use of more advanced tool or sites, like ESL or ManiaCup etc.

When you say that Frostbeule is involving himself, and so we should be cool about him being negative and insulting toward our implication, I think you are putting things in the wrong order. I often met people trying to be in front and preventing others to be there, and justifying their attitude by being the one in front. Dividing people is a way to prevent a lot of people to get involved, being negative while being involved is even worse, because it makes other believe that they are right of doing so. With great status and involvement comes greater responsibilities and need of being positive. If he was nobody, not involved, speaking with no ones and not spending a lot of time on eSport for TM, then it would matter much less. He was against Mania-Actu spirit of bindings games on a site, he came on the site to say that he voted for another game than Canyon to be in a worldwide competition (he can vote for it, of course, but to come to say it on a trackmania site is really a negative attitude) etc. Once he will understand that being negative with the dev, splitting the community, giving the wrong example, trying to change the rules at his advantage are especially bad because of his status, and that other players will help him to understand, then we will have made a good step forward. I doubt he would apologize, for having seen the guy operates since years, but that's clearly an ongoing mistake from his part.

Then, what you are saying about F1 is really specific. Formula has been designed as an entertainment sport. It is made for spectators and broadcast on biggest channels in many places of the world. This sport is based on a show much more than on players. Trackmania can be like this, in one of it's format, but it is going to be hard to beat the F1 show of real engines in real life with real drivers at the moment. The way to beat it, is to have a lot of players, a lot of competitors and a lot of followers, like Leagues of Legends, for example. And in order to do that, I think there are much better path than others. People who don't think about these paths and expect them to arise from nowhere are preparing themselves to wait for other people to do this instead of them. In racing, we are leaders of eSport, and players should act as this as well. They should try to understand what is the path to much more competitors and audience. And one of the answer is by allowing much more people to compete in much more competitions with much more chances to win while providing for spectators a much more solid story with much more uncertainty of the outcome and match that are thrilling to watch.

It is useless to tell me that a mode is too random or not unless you look at podiums. You still see that the best ones still went to the top. And if you have greater uncertainty, you will enjoy to have more cups, that's all. Remove the loser brackets and I think it will be even better. People would watch more match and each match would be so much more thrilling. Sorry, but a loser bracket in the world cup of football would be really strange. A loser bracket at Tennis would be as well. You can do pools, loser brackets before 16th of finals, or whatever you want to ready up the show, but once it starts it should be hard for anybody to win. In cup mode, you even have 2 people to move on next step, and it is still a big net to avoid bad results for most trained players. If you want to make it harder, you can select only one. I would not give the advice to do this, but it is an example on how to increase uncertainty. Once you are aware of the concept, you just have to ask yourself, or spectators, what they would like to see as for uncertainty. I made it, and I even discussed that with the manager of one of the biggest football club. Best players and teams want to reduce uncertainty, of course, but audience and the other teams are just here for it. In France, when a team from 3rd division is challenging one of the top, everybody would like the team of the 3rd to win. The best has to win, but the best is not a statistic, it is the match. In football, 90 minutes are determined by some sequences of 10 seconds that makes a goal or not. Without these 10 successful seconds, you can lose a goal or two, making the difference. Rounds mode is a statistical average. If you want to make racing like F1, do one race, multilap, without respawn. It does not prevent players to have fun with other modes, and I would rarely do a cup with my friends to have fun, but if we are talking of eSport with a lot of competitors and spectators, then you should take it into account in the right way. how many can hope to win a LAN or reach good places, can also determine how interesting it will be to make that competition. And if you do loser brackets to play more in LAN, then organize more things to be played. And I really don't say I am against the fun of loser brackets, I am just saying that it is this type of things that could help also the uncertainty for competitors and spectators to exist, in the goal of a bigger and more thrilling esport. But to play for fun is still a very very good option ^_^

About the tools, you should be aware that I followed a lot of top level competitions, that I went to more than ten offline events, with international competition, and that making rules and tools is part of my job. I talk with organizers, team managers, casters, admins that are making the job also since more than ten years. And I am reading tons of posts each month on the forums. I also take into account the technical side of things and development times we have. So, it is hard to come with suggestions, it is easier to express feelings, needs, desires etc. Express them in a clear way and I will do what I can to take them into account. But taking many feedbacks means to also make the single answer more or less satisfying, depending of each one. Some players thinks it should be their way only and ask us to follow it. But what happens if ten players do it? We take into account a lot of diverse questions, including the technical aspect of things. I would not say how to drive well to a pro, and my job is much much more intensive on schedules, since more than ten years, that it should also be taken into account when giving lessons, or suggestions. When a player sees us as a pro, he knows how to help us better. I love feedbacks, I build nearly all my design, my thinkings on them, but since I spend 50+ hours per week to do it since ten years, it is strange to have a players arrive and tell us we are doing the wrong choice. I can understand that they feel wrong for him, butthe big picture is many times, many people, more complicated than that. Just try to read the entire posts of last week on this forum, and you shall see by how many we are talking about here: I selected the active topics only, and found out 350 ones over the last 7 days. One per day for a year. And they are not blabla topics at all.

Multiple environment servers is another topic. I already said that the mid term goal was to have title that could be multiple environments, and I just can't say when it will be. Priorities are being adapted all the time. I would bet for the release of Valley, but then you would not know better ^_^

[infarctus]

Nice posts everyone. I just have one thing to say :

Please do not remove the nativ CupMode!

[Romain42]

Thanks for this comprehensive answer.

I already had the link you mentionned, but i need to test it for true before to make a feedback.
Thanks anyway.

Now i understand better about votes. Yes, it makes sense to do this way.

When you say that Frostbeule is involving himself, and so we should be cool about him being negative and insulting toward our implication, I think you are putting things in the wrong order.

There is a misunderstanding, i'm affraid. I don't believe this kind of behaviour is cool, not at all! I just said he is not ONLY a negative player, and he brings things to the community. I don't want to judge him, it's a bit like a pyromaniac firefighter.

My main point wasn't actually about frostBeule himself, i rather wanted to highlight how much we could improve the community if everyone involved (without being "negative" ofc).

Last but not least, i'm quite used now by "negative" players, we at ET see lots of them complain each time they have an opportunity. Sometimes because they don't like the rules, sometimes because they don't like the maps, sometimes just because they need to get the focus on them...


I agree with what you said about the comparison with F1. When i pictured it, it was rather to explain that we have to rely on far much more people than those who are just interested in cash prizes if we want to make the eSport successful. And probably, one should not feel forced to give cash prize at all the tournaments. In other words, i think TM will remain a hobby for most of the competitors (whether or not they consider themselves involved in an eSport), and the pros (those who earn money through the eSport) will forever remain the minority. And we have to wisely deal with this. Otherwise we'll kill the eSport and make it a small closed circus with 8 players or so...



About the rounds vs cup mode, i really respect your opinion but i still think rounds is better. But as i said, it is the opinion from a player and i still consider the tournaments we run at ET are made for players, rather than for spectators. Maybe the cup mode is better for spectators, but watching a match instead of playing it is not my cup of tea.

I agree about the loser bracket, though. It makes the competition too complex to understand for casual players/spectators. But the fact to make a loser bracket or not doesn't change the difficulty of a tournament. It is the level of the opponents teams that makes the difficulty. Did you see a loser bracket in the TNC, btw?

And if you want to make the uncertainty maximum, there is still the KTLC mode (maybe you heared about it). Or the knockout of TMX. Of course it's not really conventional, but there will be lots of dramatic turns of events, which is the best if you want spectators to thrill.

About your statistic vision of the rounds mode, you could as well compare with tennis. In tennis, you need to have a good consistency all over the match and you can't rely on a single high note at the right moment. Thus it can vary from a sport to another. Same with the laps mode, i'm pretty convinced it has a relevance for eSports too. And the fact one mode succeeds doesn't prevent another one to succeed as well. We could very well have rounds, cup and laps all together in official competitions. And don't forget teams and relay race (if technically developed further enough).

Some players thinks it should be their way only and ask us to follow it. But what happens if ten players do it?

I think, while it is possible, the system should allow various kind of uses. Making things too rigid will lead them to not be useful for some users, hence the more flexible, the better. Of course, it's a general point of view and it couldn't help in some specific cases.

And sorry, i didn't told you made a wrong choice, i was just surprised to see this feature without expecting it. It is a good news, actually, but since it wasn't expected we don't know yet if it fits our needs. And yes, there are lots of things to read on this forum, which makes hard to read everything, that's sure.

And multiple environments for the release of valley would be great.

[Hylis]

thanks for your solid answer as well

two points, to reduce the number of different perspective

1. In tennis, you may think it is like rounds, but that's not. There is the 'break' concept. The man at the service has an advantage, so, it is sometimes as rare as in football that there is this break. The whole match is on 3 to 5 breaks. The rest of it is giving the advantage to a player and see if he is capable to keep it. The uncertainty is there. But more importantly, the matches are rarely broadcast. I think it would be a mistake to believe that people would find cool to to follow a weekly tournament with lack of uncertainty, and always the same winner each week. Every 4 months, with uncertainty on the quarter of final to the final is better, since you see more people. Keep in mind that over 24 years, there is one full minute of 100m final, and that it is one of the most popular. You can not make rounds each week and hope people to be interested in that. Make championship with regions and teams that people can attached to, and you may have a chance of weekly. Or a 12 races in the year, with one big race of 10 people each time. Create the story, the uncertainty of each etc. I know there are competitions around that are more like this, and I don't say it is going in the wrong direction.

2. I am totally for a KTLC style of competition for the match. I regret that the action is happening at the back of it instead that at the front, but it is typically a mode that is designed for the thrill and being capable to see some champions be eliminated (true champions would not be, since they would handle risk/rewards better) However, on a LAN setup, it could be difficult. A single race of 6 players on a 15 laps of one minute (without many checkpoints) may be a good one, like F1 but more compact. And you can use the same setup of 3 vs 3. A 5 vs 5 setup exist in many game, so you may try to go up to 10, but I find it confusing and too distant from players. I don't know all the existing formats, by far, and you probably is more aware of them. But I am aware of what to look at making an entertaining one and one that many players can hope to win. Maybe you like round, the majority likes time attack, but is is not a reason to believe that time attack is good for competition. So, there is really a difference between a fun mode to play, or to compete, and one that could be a perfect one to watch. In fun football with your friends, you don't have 1 goal every hour. You would rather make the goal wider to enable more actions. And it is not what football convention made when they move the size of the goals.

[Miraculix123]

One feature that would be very good is to be able to create tournaments "ingame" In that way it would be easy for people to find tournaments and register aswell.
I Imagine a scenario where you can logon to Trackmania and in serverlist find a tournament that you can attend in, like registration 3 days left 57 spots left etc. What you think about this idea Hylis?

Then you can implement how hard the tournament is regarding to who is attending etc. If you have connected ranks ingame.

Maybee something for the future?

[Hylis]

done