Valley learns from Canyon?

[TMarc]

Very nice post as well, eyebo, which also deserves to get quoted

Every environment / title has its potential to polarize.
For everything you will find people who love it and hate it.

The people who wanted a more modern TrackMania got somehow a surprise with Canyon.
Some were already disappointed by seeing mostly the good old desert,
even if it got more of the moto GP track parts of Coast and a improved drifting.
Some were happy exactly because it was a new Desert.
Still many things could be improved, e.g. a real dam with water behind it (different water levels across the track).
But nothing is really perfect, as real life is often not.

Its nice to see you are eager to play Valley, but I would warn you not to emphasize to much so you don't get disappointed when it gets released.

Your last point is also good.
But just to have fun, just for distraction, no one really needs skills.
It is only a matter of time to discover and to enjoy, at best without any stress
Everyone should be able to find something which brings him/her forward in life, regardless if it is for work, for leisure, for skills, for fun

[Romain42]

EDIT : Romain, Hylis meant the camera on the TMUF envs was a bit higher and focused nearer to the front of the car than in Canyon.

Oh thanks! Well, i don't know for most of players, but the view never bothered me in Canyon. And in case of unexpected need, i think such issue should not be that hard to update, is it?

And I believe you could be talking about any TrackMania environment when you said that.

Valley will very likely also be a polarizing environment. Some people will love it, others may not. Right now some people seem to hold it out as their hope of the "perfect TM environment". I worry that people may build up their expectations too high.

Indeed the expectations are terribly high. Nevertheless: ...

It is hard to make sweet and bitter at the same time

A french saying says: "One can't run after two jackrabbits at once". (Don't know if it exists in english)...

I tend to think Canyon has been made to please both TMN-players and TMU ones, who had pretty different expectations. In my opinion the tastes of TMU environment are stronger because the structure of the games made possible to have radical differences between them, and i have the feeling Nadeo tried to not displease anyone with Canyon. That could explain Canyon has a rather consensual gameplay, and thus people who expected something more spicy could've been disappointed?

And indeed eyebo, your speech about the "acquired taste" is very relevant (i think i already told you). I hated Canyon at the very beginning and i started to like it after a lot of gaming. My main concern with this environment is that it is very hard to build real tech maps with it, and it makes things harder for the leagues...

[eyebo]

you might've just changed my future life with this post, no jokes.

Very nice post as well, eyebo, which also deserves to get quoted

Thanks.

But just to have fun, just for distraction, no one really needs skills.

I partially agree with this. But I think it depends what you are doing, also who you are doing it with. If you're watching a movie you can enjoy it without needing any particular skills other than being able to sit still for 2 hours and focus your mind on the picture. That's a somewhat passive experience.

Gaming is more of an active experience. For me, TM became a lot more fun once I gained some measure of skill with it. And I don't just mean driving, but also with the track editor. Same is true with ShootMania. Truth be told, I didn't particularly like ShootMania at first, mostly because I just ran around getting eliminated all the time. Now I know some strategy, and I have some measure of skill... and I actually enjoy playing it.

I agree that you don't have to be the best at something or have an extremely high level of skill to enjoy it. But, at least for me, I need enough time with it to appreciate how it works and how to be somewhat good at it, otherwise I don't really feel it's worth doing. What's the old saying... "Anything worth doing is worth doing well".

And indeed eyebo, your speech about the "acquired taste" is very relevant (i think i already told you).

Thanks!
And yeah, you did. I wrote a similar post on the MX blog a few months ago and you replied there. I remember.

My main concern with this environment is that it is very hard to build real tech maps with it, and it makes things harder for the leagues...

You're right about tech tracks. It's very difficult to make real "league tech" in Canyon. It is possible though. Phil, tcq, milmas, and others have made extremely techy maps, which are suitable for league driving. It seems many league drivers prefer speedtech these days though. I don't know if that mentality will change with the addition of a new environment. I'm really curious what size the Valley blocks will be.

It is only a matter of time to discover and to enjoy, at best without any stress

I totally agree with this! The stress seems to happen when people want to learn/discover things too fast, instead of taking the time and letting it happen naturally.

[SuCCeSSoR-040]

This is an excellent quote.

And I believe you could be talking about any TrackMania environment when you said that.

[snip]

Learning new skills can, with persistence, bring a lot of joy.

Damn eyebo!
I always love these well thought out posts of yours.
I couldn't have said it better.

I also feel like it's all about the fast pace of living our life these days that people don't really take the time to 'learn' to appreciate things.
I myself am more a fan of Canyon than the earlier installments of TM.
Maybe it is because in the early days I played some TMUF and there were too many other games around that I wanted to play and stepped off the train too quickly to learn to love it. Dunno.
But with Canyon for some reason I was instantly hooked to the game from the first minute on.
And I stepped off the Canyon train for Battlefield 3 only to come back at it 3 or 4 months later.
Then I stepped off of it for games like Diablo 3 and Borderlands 2 and come back to Canyon again after a few months (and have build the PF Allegro as a nice comeback ;o) ).
I still really dunno what it is, Canyon is always dragging me back into it's addictive creativeness. Be it for racing all the community made maps or for creating them myself. It could also be that it is because of this fine community hangin' around these maniaplanet games.

Most of you are looking forward to Valley, I for one am mostly looking forward to Stadium (as my avatar suspects). Maybe it's because I now have the chance to learn and love it like should have done with the first installment of Stadium.
One thing is sure, for the first couple of years I won't be stepping off the Maniaplanet train for good. It will always be just short periods of time.
I like to call myself a dedicated fan of Nadeo with it's community friendly games!
So keep up the good stuff and you'll keep me hooked for a long time I guess.

[infarctus]

Amazing how a troll little post can bring a great and serious discution

[Hylis]

I anticipated it , but I wished to explain anyway

[HVFlateric]

One of the things I am finding I appreciate more and more is the fact the developers in this case actually interact and listen to the community and it's concerns.

This is really refreshing after coming from another game just recently where the community was largely not only ignored but in some ways treated with disrespect. And now when their game should be thriving it is dwindling and only now do they wish to listen AND respond to what many have told them needed to be done from day one. Unfortunately most players have left and left for good. Tribes will never be the same it seems.

So, my compliments on your taking the time and thought to browse your own forums and respond to the players.

Says alot about your company and means alot to me anyways, earns my loyalty and future purchases without any doubts.

[Demented]

Yes HVFlateric, you will find that the Nadeo Team does listen and care about the players here, and not just to make a buck or two. You'll see in time that their motives seem more to be for Pride in good gaming than profits. That's the biggest reason I respect them.

[zarexz]

Yeah! It's not EA for example.

[xnorb]

Ubisoft did LOTS of mistakes when it comes to TM2.

* Marketing - not existing
I missed the launch completely, although i've been following TM for years.

* Forcing the release although the game wasn't finished at all.
1 Environment ?
1 Game mode ?
20€ ?
That's not Trackmania ... that's rip-off ...
Needless to say i still bought it because it's Trackmania, but i was disappointed.
Trackmania (except TMN) to me has always been "Oh my god, look at all that content !)

* Forcing the Mania Planet thing
I guess they were onto something big, but it simply failed.
This pseudo-social / microtransaction thing scares off people rather than adding depth to their gaming experience



I know Ubisoft got their uPlay and for TM they got maniaplanet and stuff, but still:
For the sake of the community and the game, put TM2 on Steam once it's finished.
(aka: all environments, all modes)