Maniaplanet Forum

djhubertus wrote:- noobs and haters(Playing to troll, Quake fans)

This is a misconception lots of people have. They see a guy saying something about "quake did this right, why not do this?" and everyone automatically assume it's hate. I'd say it's criticism, but I guess i'm just a hater so what do I know?

Hylis wrote:Impressive post for a smartphone

I also think it's useless and counter productive to try to put a stress around. It's mainly because I have a plan and unless it's done, I have little reason to stress. But at the same time, you are quite right that some players can stress because they don't see it clearly enough, and that's my fault. So, I will explain a little, since I think that the next step is quite easy.

Wrong. People are stressing because they see a sinking ship and they all want the captain to keep it afloat for as long as possible, but you are basically telling everyone "nono, just stay on the ship for a few more minutes, it won't sink yet".

That is the difference here. You think people are stressed because they don't see your plan, but people are stressing because they were never told this was a 5 year plan when they invested in the game. Sure, no one expected the game to be fully done by release-date, but what we've seen so far has been anything but impressive.

Hylis wrote: June 2014 plan - The universal demo

The goal here is to have more fun and more friends.

More 'fun' modes
Why: the only demo mode, Elite, is too competitive for many.
Short answer: the universal demo
Long answer: It's already impressive to see so many people to play in a competitive mode in France, and it's probably one of the reason why it was the FPS with the most team at the Gamers Assembly. But how many care about playing a FPS for competition? This is why that there is a need of mode 'fun' modes, and that these modes are available in demo. We are working on our side, but the 2.0 approach is the key. For example, a CTF can please more to some players that Elite. And in the end, the cool thing is that it could then bring more people to like the competition, and Elite as well.

More friends
Why: main reason to play on long term is to do it with friends
Short answer: universal demo
Long answer: It's difficult to invite a friend to discover Maniaplanet today. Either he buys the game and follow your instructions, either he plays Elite with the still to fully rebuild matchmaking (better technology now, but younger than the previous one) So, once the universal demo release, the welcome should be better, and with an easier access to 'fun' modes thanks to the Store. The 2.0 approach and the store can become of a great attractiveness to test and welcome friends to discover stuff, for free.

And again, let me stress (pun intended) why this thinking is so wrong.

You'll find it hard to get new players into a game that has such a small playerbase. Basically people are seeing this game as a dead game, so they won't invest in it. It has also gotten a very bad reputation despite it's small, yet faithful playerbase.

When people outside of Europe (or France for that matter) get into this game they find almost no players for most modes. So they start asking around and get told that there are almost no players for this game and not worth getting into. Thus they end up moving on to another game.

This is just a simple fact and we've all seen it happen to so many games. Sure, some will still have a small, yet faithful playerbase but it won't ever get any bigger becasue of said problem. So whatever plan you have, I don't see it happening considering how badly of a reputation Shootmania has already gotten from players who used to play it but then left. And there has been lots of players who have left the game. That much is evident,especially for us who have been involved since early alpha/beta. We saw a steady growth during beta up untill open beta, and then nothing really happened since launch. In fact, it seems as if it has gotten worse in terms of player numbers since open beta. And that is over a year ago.

Hylis wrote:And this is just the next step. I can not talk of the one after, but it's obvious that there is one after. Our goal is to build the most popular FPS, and long term is our best ally, since even if it's really long to make 2.0 & esport, I am quite sure that it's a right path. And I believe that players are stressing because they so much know how much this path is cool, and that they want to see it succeed. But I can tell that Ubisoft is really behind us to make it happen on long term. And this is why the dev team is bigger than ever.

Again, players are stressing because they're not sure how much longer they'll be able to put up with this game and the direction you're going. You're right that players want to see it succeed, but a 5 year plan won't work. I mean, your entire engine and system is so outdated that a long term plan isn't exactly helping your goals. Still constant clicking from one page to the next. Ever heard about scrollwheels and scrollbars? I guess you have, but are you capable of incorporating it? (I agree that this is a tiny detail, but it just goes to show how far behind the times you are as a company when it comes to development)

Then there is the actual game engine itself. Horrible outdated already, and your plan is a 5 year plan or something like that? (I heard another Nadeo employee say they expected the game to have more players in 15 years than today, so that says alot of the timescales being thought about here). I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but are you that delusional?

Ubisoft can be behind you all they want, but I'm afraid the ship has sailed and is already sinking. Which is a shame, because the game holds so much promise but yet after another big nerf to walljumps (and even hardcoding brown castle walls to only allow 1 walljump pr block is just laughable) and no fix to microstutterjumps I've lost all hope for you.

I've waited a year for a proper update (I don't count the summer update of last year since it added nothing to the game) and all I got was some new blocks and textures that make the game look more like cheap urban warfare shooter than anything? Sorry Mac, you have to do better than that.

I'm fairly sure you won't miss me, but you've made some grave errors in development and the direction you've taken the game. For isntance, removal of bounce rockets from Beta2 was probably the biggest failure ever. Should've added a secondary fire-button and made bounce rockets cost 2-2.5 ammo so they could be used anywhere and even on the run. But hey, that would go against the simplicity principle this game has, right? The same simplicity rule being broken by brown and white castle blocks having different properties when it comes to walljumps (I could make a video and explain all this to you, but you made this game so you know exactly what I'm talking about. Or so I hope for your sake).

Nerfing walljumps haven't exactly been a great success either. The only good walljumpchange to come out in this update is taht they don't slow you down anymore as they did in Beta3. That and the increased stamina.

But hey, those changes should've been made in april of 2013, not 2014.

But ofcourse, you have a long term plan so go ahead. I'm sure in 5 years you'll have 10x more players than today. That is, if no other similiar type of game shows up. If a real competitor to Shootmania does show up in the next couple of years, wave byebye to your long term plan.

And it's exactly because of that reason people are stressing. Yes they want the game to succeed, but as opposed to you, the players realize how close the ship is to sinking. You however, seem completely oblivious to the fact that all ships can sink.

Were you by any chance involved in constructing and selling the Titanic? (Sorry, couldn't help myself).

Anyways, good luck, some of us are out.

sadzealot wrote: ... but people are stressing because they were never told this was a 5 year plan when they invested in the game. Sure, no one expected the game to be fully done by release-date...

..When people outside of Europe (or France for that matter) get into this game they find almost no players for most modes. So they start asking around and get told that there are almost no players for this game and not worth getting into. Thus they end up moving on to another game... Sure, some will still have a small, yet faithful playerbase but it won't ever get any bigger becasue of said problem...growth during beta up untill open beta, and then nothing really happened since launch. In fact, it seems as if it has gotten worse in terms of player numbers since open beta...

These would be the only few parts that I agree with from this post. A 5 year plan is a bit ridiculous I will give you that, but it doesn't mean it won't work, and of course no one expected it to be done by release date. As for the inter-continental growth problem, that's simply because players move on, it's just that the game isn't that known in other parts of the world. In oceana there are few servers that you'll see with players on but when you do it'll be on elite. The problem of the player base is because the game is so divided. Valley, Canyon and Stadium are all seperate games whereas United had all of the previous TM titles combined, and even before that the environments came in 3s. Open beta growth change is simple: people love free games.

Anyway, one thing I've waited for a long time for is... well really any sign of questmania's continued existence, mainly because since it's announcement to public that it existed, well that was all. Nothing was heard of it ever again...

Anyway I'm still playing Nadeo's games after 5 years and I've seen the community come and go now, but now, I just wait for the community to return now.

I agree with sadzealot.
I would go for something good & goodlooking right now and add features later. Expand the game with time.
Not : add all features 50% now and we'll finish it somewhere in 1-2years. People dont like unfinished things.

-

One more thing: The MP3 update isnt that bad. Its just that casual gamers ( = not coders, mappers, etc ) dont really see so much changes. Casual players got : textures and that is all. (I know there were more changes )

Mappers & coders got so much more and its now up to them to create something cool for the casual gamers. I like this, but RIGHT NOW I am feeling a bit dissapointed. To really experience the full effect of the latest update the casual gamers will have to wait a little longer until new mods/maps/titles/etc are created... If its a really cool mod then we'll get that WOW-effect...but not now.

Also, a lot of the SM players are "Elite only players". What exactly did they get with the new update? Again, actually really not that much. If I am really honest for me Elite feels exactly the same before & after the update... and that makes me sad.
Elite is théééé mod for SM. Without Elite I would almost say that SM wouldnt excist. Why didnt this mod get extra attention? : Stats, Better Ranking, Team Ranking, This & That.

Anyways, I'm gonna play some Instagib now ^^

novationx wrote:Elite is théééé mod for SM. Without Elite I would almost say that SM wouldnt excist. Why didnt this mod get extra attention?

No.

TitlePacks can be seen in the serverlist without having the Title installed. Speedball TitlePack is around since August 2013, the gamemode itself since July 2012 and yet we had an increase of Downloads from 600 to 1100 since MP3 release. Most of them had never heard of Speedball before. Same thing with all the other Titlepacks probably.

Don't forget that Elite was the only mode getting attention from Nadeo for a year and that most people only ever played Elite because of that. Finally the other modes get some love as well. THIS is the biggest improvement for "casual players" of any update ever.


I want to inform you that your logic "improvements for mappers and coders are good, but please improve Elite" is a fail in itself, as Elite is a Nadeo mode and therefore the one with the least community created content...
I fucking hate Elite players sometimes...

To say it simply and without big texts from players who say how they love the game but only lacks other players: Elite should be the Elite of a less elite world. We are building this world, and I doubt many team can build it as fast as the Nadeo team. We are just building more the fondations than the sugar-attractive candies on top of the game, but I think it's how good qake are done

Finally the other modes get some love as well. THIS is the biggest improvement for "casual players" of any update ever.

+1

Soprah wrote: My intention of this topic is, that hopefully all players will finally comprehend the difficult situation of the game developers now and keep calm & patient and don't do pressure to the developers anymore.Why? It's easy to answer: If we let the developers do their things and don't put the heat on Nadeo, they are able to polish their release version as much as possible. Who would benefit? We! Because then we are able to enjoy the at least 90% bug free release version.

By the way, I don't use any direct source when I say in this topic ''People always complain'' because if you would use a quote of one certain guy, people would start blaming on him and I don't want that.

And notice this: Please please please don't regard this is as any personal attack, I just would like to clarify the situation.

Hello Soprah,

Thank you for "clarifying the situation" so far. However, I'm afraid we are not done yet in matters of clarifying. I wanna get back to you on some points you made, mostly because I got the feeling that your understanding of software development is fairly limited, no offense. I've worked as a project manager in a big browser game company and know something about the processes of software development. Additionally I'm a certified software tester. Nadeo's way of developing the Mania Games is what's really getting discussed here in the forums every day, directly or indirectly. Most players are right about complaining, even if they're just ranting or blaming the wrong people. They are upset for good reasons. Now let's get through this step by step:

On the one hand, the most people would like to have the update released as early as possible. On the other hand, people would like to have a completely bug free release date version.
Doing pressure but at the same time demanding an entirely perfect product, is a bit contradictory, isn't it?

The main problem with the MP Beta 3-Update wasn't the pressure putting on the dev's shoulders. Around 9 months for an update (even for its size) is by no means a rushed update. 9 months, that is a huuuge amount of time compared to the average lifetime of an online game. You are right about the contradiction of time vs. quality: The customer wants things getting done fast and right (of course he does, he payed good money). Now how do we adress that problem? With small updates! Ideally you want to release versions of your software in a 2-4 weeks interval. You want to have a complete, open and transparent list of what has changed between your current and your last version. This way the customer sees continuously progress and stays excited and patient. Even more important: You get specific feedback on the small changes you made and can react to that feedback. Because software will be normally created by a group of people who actually don't use it. They create software for other people, namely the customers. The developers need to know what the customer wants in order to know what to build. So you want to keep that cycle: Listen, build, show, listen, build, show, listen etc. – in short iterations. This is how you do it. That is the only way to make your product successful. Now what did Nadeo do? I can only judge by looking at Shootmania: They locked up in their rooms for so many months that most players weren't even aware that the game is still in development, that more content is coming. Nadeo has a great channel to provide informations (Mania Planet itself) but they don't use it properly. They crapped some information of this massive update in their forum which is scattered in languages and game titles. In terms of communication this is a total disaster. It's unprofessional and sloppy, and not excusable by how small the studio is.

Games will be never bug free!

Correct. It's a goal never to be achieved but best quality should be at all times one of your top priorities. Again, I can only judge on Shootmania. A well-known bug occured in Royal since the release of Shootmania in April 10h 2013: If a new player joins the match in a certain moment he would be semi-alive at spawn and couldn't move but getting survival points. Eventually the last (real) player couldn't defeat him since he'd be behind the storm and had to suicide. Next rounds it would go on like that until the bugged player realizes the situation and rejoins or gets kicked (often enough he got kicked from the bug-tired veterans). Now imagine yourself coming fresh into the game, joining Royal and experience this. You don't know what is going on, why you have been kicked. It happened around 3 or 4 times on a busy day. This bug is what we call a blocker: Preventing the software to proceed its routine. A blocker is ranked as a critical bug. It has been reported several times over the last year and got finally patched out by the last update. Look, this is only one example of what should have happened a month after release, not 13 months after release. Again: Small updates! Short iteration cycles! The very bascis of modern programming. I'm sure Nadeo knows all about this. So why are they doing this? I can only guess here: They are challenged by developing several games at once including a platform (Mania Planet) which works like the basement to all of their games. Ever wondered why there are still medals in Shootmania? Or why the match is called a "race"? They took Trackmania and reworked it until they had a shooter. Nothing wrong with that. However, it seems this is all connected and Shootmania for instance is strongly depending on the code of Trackmania or at least on the code of Mania Planet. What should have been modular seems unitized to a point that if you work on one game, you are forced to work on all other games as well. I honestly can't think of another explanation why Nadeo would work the way they do.

Especially betas will be never bug free!

Careful here. Mania Planet is in Beta, not the games. Shootmania for example is out of beta since April 10th 2013. It's a normal release and will be treated as such.

There is no guarantee that a bug will be ever fixed!

No guarantee at all. Neither is guaranteed that players stay if you prioritize wrong. Bad decisions have been made. Not that much to be fair, but at a time when Nadeo couldn't afford any more mistakes. It's a rough world.

I can understand you guys... You are eagerly waiting for the new update, because you know, that this update will definitely improve the game and increase the fun factor and then you read ''I am sorry, but due to several things we have to postpone the release of the update". I feel like you at this moment. Huge disappointment, discontentment, frustation comes up.

With all the design flaws the game still has, the least change anyone expected to see is on the main textures. I die to find out the reason for that decision. I assume the texture change was made for the media and Ubisoft. "Look guys how the game evolved over time! Impressive update, eh?!" To them? Probably. To us? Not so. – Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the update. I got used to the new rockets no one ever asked for. I got used to the fact that we'd had to build every map from scratch when suddenly everything looked like a black&white-mishmash of pure uglyness. But I also understood the new possibilities with the new blocks for instance. No, the update itself would have been a good start to work with. Stamina change was good, new blocks are fun. The problem is: We are far beyond the start and there isn't anyone left who would do the said work. And for whom for that matter? And when to expect the next update? In 9 months? Because we know "that this update will definitely improve the game and increase the fun factor"? Well, the last didn't. Who ever expected that is very naive about how software is made.
You try to shift everything back to the players and their perception, Soprah, to their cynicism and impatience. There is some truth to it but you exaggerated your position. The players are right to complain since they have good reasons to be afraid. A lot went wrong here and apparently things keep heading in the wrong direction.

@Hylis: Your fans are leaving constantly and you keep dreaming about casual gamers swapping from Battlefield or Call of Duty to Shootmania CTF? You keep working on community features like the Action Maker when there is in fact no community left to use it? Don't work on getting new players on board if you can't hold your major target group. – I have to second sadzealot: The ship has sunk. In regards to Shootmania you guys won't survive the next decent arena shooter. And I feel terrible sorry for you because your game could have been so big. This is what you get when you seal fishy deals with Ubisoft, I guess.

I quit, farewell.

Egophagus wrote:

Great post, very well written and it sums up pretty much the entire situation.

@Soprah, i Think it is important to remember that Nadeo is a business. A business is required to make Money. They make Money by Selling Products or services. They are not in this to enrich your Life in your sparetime as a personal favour to you, no, they need to make a Product you can buy from them to keep their business alive. If the Product isn't good enough or liked/bought by many enough, the business will go under. Simple as that. So, i would say it is in the business' interest to do improvements on the Product fast and accurate if the popularity is declining.

A very good example of this is what happened a few years ago with TMF. Over night, without any warnings or indications, they cut the free, open access to the game and introduced the "Freezone", a scaled down version, as their advertizing-revenue in the game was closed down. So, when the income/Revenue got lost, gg & bb to the Community.

Nadeo has, or maybe it's more correct to say had, something unique in their relationship to their customers/Community. This has changed for sure. There's only the small, niche Group of hardcore-fans left. Look at the statistics on Maniaviewer, the curve is going steadily downhill.... this can only go on till Ubi decides to no longer put Money into the black hole.......... What's even more freightening, as i see it, is that most customers/users that come here, in their own way, and express their opinion about the game (Product) and also suggests improvements etc, are more often than seldom, rejected by Nadeo as "negative players" and We, Nadeo knows best, this is the best way, you know nothing etc etc.

This can and will only change when Nadeo understands or decides to make a commercially viable game, and not niche, as today. However, it is promoted and advertized as a commercially game without beeing so and i Think this is confusing to many and the reason for the lack of players.

Advice to Nadeo for the future: under-promise - over-deliver and not as today, over-promise - under-deliver.

Over and out!

PS: and Soprah, not that it is any of my business but i would really consider to change your avatar. That person is the biggest fraud and liar in sport history. Choose a quote from someone good instead, shouldn't be that hard to find.

So much truth in the last 2 posts , and the worst part is that they - NADEO- will just see these posts as "negative" and not as the truth... Im sure NADEO has a plan for the future, but based on my experiences the last 2years I havent seen a good plan. Maybe its time for plan B , NADEO?

Its funny how all of you devs are so active on the forums, but dont seem to listen to some of these crucial posts...
I'd like to invite the NADEO devs to actually stop coding for 1 day , change their nicknames to something random and play ShootMania. Just play the game and ask the players what they think about the game and NADEO.

Servers are empty, finding a pracc is impossible, outside FR this game is completely dead, every single time I check non EU-servers they have 1-5 people playing. Even in the EU there is nothing to play before 16h. When you open the store you can see that 2players are playing some of the mods you/we made. Its depressing.
Dont believe? Look at the statistics on ManiaViewer or just launch the game.
Is this really enough of for you? After 2years of hard work. Does it feel rewarding to you to develop fulltime an inactive game?

Somebody will reply : Yes Novationx, but Gamers Assembly had 42teams... so you are wrong.
My reply would be: Please do not be ignorant. Every stat you can find about SM is depressing and you know it.

Im not being pessimistic, but realistic.

The truth is I can play this game forever. I really enjoy it, but clearly barely anyone shares my opinion. The main reason why people leave, is the small playerbase or they just dont buy the game because they heard it has a small playerbase.


What needs to change?
I just think that NADEO doesnt really know what is attractive. They are developping the wrong stuff. They need to ask themselves why so few people are playing their game. Why are people buying Call of Duty? Why are people buying Watch Dogs or Titanfall? Whats missing in ShootMania? What is the true priority?


What would I do & my true priorities:

- Keep fixing bugs like in the last weeks.
- Better hitbox.
-->The current hitbox is clearly too big, while some parts ( head & feet ) are unhittable. Bad hitboxes can kill an FPS game.

- Make everything in the game look like the homescreen.
-->Im still seeing véry véry véry old designs in this game. Its unacceptable. Make it look good. Good looking things sell better.

- Make it easy to game together.
--> Invitations via buddy-system & invitations via steam. ( Incentive to keep players playing )

- Better ranking system.
--> A lot of gamers dont just game for fun, they want to be better than other players. Even casual gamers wanna rank up and be good. I know this game has a ranking, but once players realise its not based on skill , but on "no-life ratio" they will ignore the ranking.
--> Keep players playing.

- Stats / Achievements per player + per server
--> Keep players playing.

- Find a good use for planets.
--> Expand the current title-store with skins, horns, crosshairs, actions, poses etc.

- Killer new mappack for Elite


THEN ( bugfree, good looking game with awesome rankings )

- Launch the universal demo & HYPE it.
- Announce a big event & HYPE it.

1-2months after the demo when, because of the demo, the community has new skilled players I would consider relaunching GO4SM on ESL, but only if the demo was successful.


THEN
- add non essential stuff and expand functionality.


THEN
- Update monthly and communicate what you are doing! Give people something to look forward too. Tease them so they wont run away.


Thats how I would do it. Take my advice or leave it Just trying to help.
Cheerz.


It would be cool btw, that for once a NADEO employee would reply : Hey guys, maybe you are right... the game isnt as active as we want. Lets change that , lets change our approach and lets do it like this!

- Better ranking system.
--> A lot of gamers dont just game for fun, they want to be better than other players. Even casual gamers wanna rank up and be good. I know this game has a ranking, but once players realise its not based on skill , but on "no-life ratio" they will ignore the ranking.
--> Keep players playing.

I couldn't agree more, IMO this is a major issue and changing it should be mandatory for the survival of the game! The current ladder system (Which is a great ranking system for TM) dosen't work at all with SM.
If you Look at other games sush as; LoL, QL, CS:GO ect ... they all have a solid ranking system that really represent how good you are at the game.
Also, last time I played on the MM server the teams were like, 8 9 9(echelons-my team) VS 6 6 7(echelons). It's not even balanced! ... and we lost! To tell you how accurate the ranking system is ...
But don't get me wrong I love ShootMania.