The Titlepacksystem - The False Prophet

[djhubertus]

I just want to highlight that ManiaCenter will be an international website with support of many languages such as English, Spanish, German, Polish, and Italian. So it could be useful for more people than french

If you want help with translation, send me a PM

[haenry]

But, for all those (which is the biggest majority) who just want to log-on and play, all this makes the game confusing, complicated and messy.
[...]
As it is is now, Nadeo basically develops and includes lot's of Tools and features that not only are uninteresting, but also confusing for the biggest part of their customers, those who only wants to play.

Well said! Maniaplanet is structured around Titlepacks. It's a structure for artists - not for players. Even for you and me it is confusing, although I consider myself more an artist, as I build a lot of maps.
Currently it is too difficult to join games and even see, which games are available. It's hard to see on which servers player play and which game modes, also what to download and where to find it.
The game is a mess. Even for us, who have experience with it, it should be way easier to handle. But nope, it's not easy.

4. We have some major element of the solution to be revealed at the demo release

It is a very general answer, but I'll look forward to your solution. I don't know of what kind it will be, but I hope it is a real solution, not just a half solution with the addition "time will fix it".

It is not a "effort to create" a title pack. It is a awesome experience. Nadeo give us the possibility to create by ourself a small video game . And don't worry. Creators and also motivated players are not lazy

While the part about the possibilities is true, most of this is euphemism. It definitely IS effort to create a good titlepack. Just ask around. While Creators of big projects might not be lazy, players are for sure - especially lazy of searching and installing.

Don't take me wrong, but a lot of players here in this thread give good arguments for titlepacks to not be the centre of the Maniaplanet system. (phil13hebert, novationx, Pedal, bobbotheclown...)
It's not about abandoning them, but finding alternatives, additions or other ways to improve!

I'm impressed how many take time to write long and structured posts. It proofs that Trackmania really is important to us

[TheBigMiike]

I'm not agree with all :
Yes, Title Packs divides the community, they are annoying to download and sometimes created just to add 1 or 2 blocks to the game.
But No, the Title Pack system isn't the problem. The problem is simply the lack of players:

- If we were 10 000 players online with access to all title packs, I'm pretty sure you would not think that the title packs are problems because they were enough players playing on ManiaPlanet.
- The server browser display all servers from all title packs relatives to an environnement so that's not a problem. All players are gathered in one place : the serverlist.

The only problem (and i'm agree with all peoples here) with Title Packs : We build a Title Pack for everything ! For 1 block, for a flag and it's stupid i think.
Maybe Nadeo could (in a 3.2 version) add a system with locators and when we connect to a server with new blocks and new weapons, a dialog box appear:

==========================================
This server requires objects / weapons to download
These files are needed to access to this server:
- XXXX.gbx
- YYYY.gbx

Total files : 2 - Total size : 52 MB - Time to download : 2 min(s) and 3 second(s)
[Download and play] [Back to Menu]
==========================================

...It 'ill avoid to download title packs each time we want to play on a server and a huge quantity of useless Title Packs

[TheM]

The problem is simply the lack of players

Well, the problem with that is that the cause of that must lay somewhere and the titlepack structure could well be one of these problems. It certainly isn't the only thing that could be improved (think marketing, etc.).

Personally, I'm not a big fan of titlepacks. With the current small community (which doesn't seem to get bigger, earlier smaller ...), it splits it even further, leaving you with not much people to play. It's good that "artists" have many possibilities in ManiaPlanet, as it's one of the goals. But (in my eyes) a much bigger goal should be the amount of people active on the ManiaPlanet. That is currently one of the major problems, that I feel is not being handled as fast as I would like.

I also think that we should give Nadeo the chance to build the platform as they like. However, if we don't get more players towards the platform, it will be hard to get it going once it's "completely" build.

[TGYoshi]

I'm not agree with all :
Yes, Title Packs divides the community, they are annoying to download and sometimes created just to add 1 or 2 blocks to the game.
But No, the Title Pack system isn't the problem. The problem is simply the lack of players:

- If we were 10 000 players online with access to all title packs, I'm pretty sure you would not think that the title packs are problems because they were enough players playing on ManiaPlanet.

If there were 10000 players online with access to all title packs, there would be much more titlepacks then there are now (more players, more creators, generally!). Besides, those people also get tired of installing all those stupid things. It's an effort and people hate putting in effort. Many games have much simpler systems which just work, why go complex with titlepacks? Just for the sake of being unique?

The only features titlepacks have which mod/pack-based content sharing beats (in terms of integrability) are online ladders (not worth it imo, ladders lack any value anyway, it's more an addiction level indicator with exception of ROC) and custom menus etc (can be cool but not a killer feature either...). All other things can seamlessly be done with mod/pack-based content sharing.

It's probably too late already though.

---

For the question of United, it is true that it combined Original + Sunrise + Nations. But if you look at them, they were all separated for years. Maniaplanet is a way to have all environment together at any time. It's not the "whole united" thing, since not everybody have "all the environments", but at the same time, it enables us to release content over the time, while having a united environment, without having people to rebuy "united" And if the solution was to release only united, then we would have taken more than five years just to make it, and so don't make it and close the studio ^_^

Shows how successful United was, should've obviously continued that with Maniaplanet.
I may be mistaken but how long can it take to put together a full environment? Years? It took only two years before Stadium got released after Canyon, which is one brand .. old environment (I understand that it can take time, but two years, seriously, it's long!), and why not throw the completely unfinished Valley right after it for some more short-term income?

A problem is more that a lot of time is wasted by working on two half-finished games and a broken platform, which staggers everything. Meanwhile it throws existing players away as well as no progress is being made for years (no update at all for a year!)

I'm not sure what's happening with the server browser etc too since it all seems like pre-alpha stuff thrown on release servers. The ugly, complex and inconsistent UI scares people away. Or maybe it even locks up the whole game if the webservers aren't responding (ah the legacy browser still works like a charm if anything acts up, once I get into a title!)

What a mess.

By the way, is QM set to release tomorrow by any chance?

[TheBigMiike]

If there were 10000 players online with access to all title packs, there would be much more titlepacks then there are now (more players, more creators, generally!). Besides, those people also get tired of installing all those stupid things. It's an effort and people hate putting in effort. Many games have much simpler systems which just work, why go complex with titlepacks? Just for the sake of being unique?

The only features titlepacks have which mod/pack-based content sharing beats (in terms of integrability) are online ladders (not worth it imo, ladders lack any value anyway, it's more an addiction level indicator with exception of ROC) and custom menus etc (can be cool but not a killer feature either...). All other things can seamlessly be done with mod/pack-based content sharing.

It's probably too late already though.

If the Title Packs system don't change and if there were 10000 players online, so yes there would be more titlepacks... but if Nadeo creates a locator system which ask player to download some stuff before playing, titlepacks will only be created if a huge transformation of the game is necessary and only artists will create title packs => Less Title Packs

[TGYoshi]

If the Title Packs system don't change and if there were 10000 players online, so yes there would be more titlepacks... but if Nadeo creates a locator system which ask player to download some stuff before playing, titlepacks will only be created if a huge transformation of the game is necessary and only artists will create title packs => Less Title Packs

So basically you're implying mod/datapack-based fits better then the titlepack system (which requires you to install titles, buy stations etc) doesn't work well at all. My point was more that the (current) titlepack system is just annoying and devious, whatever system you've explained after fits A LOT better, that's what I can agree upon without doubt. More players won't solve that issue (again; unless some system like you've made an example of after is implemented, which I regard asdata/mod-packs).

The titlepacks system is (partially) the cause of the lack of players, not inversed.

[haenry]

If the Title Packs system doesn't change and if there were 10000 players online, so yes there would be more titlepacks... but if Nadeo creates a locator system which ask player to download some stuff before playing, titlepacks will only be created if a huge transformation of the game is necessary and only artists will create title packs => Less Title Packs

Don't mix it up! As yoshi already said, you imply that a different system exists. You're not talking about Titlepacks allone, but a Content sharing system + the titlepack system together. Your suggestion is good and very similar to mine: Add a different system for content sharing, but keep Titlepacks for insanely huge projects.
Just to keep things clear

With more players come more Artists. The ratio of artists/players will stay relatively constant. Therefore the Ratio of Titlepacks/players will stay constant as well, as the amount of Titlepacks is proportional to the amount of Artists.
Therefore the solution "we just need more players" is not a solution that works. It's not that easy, sadly

[meuh21]

The titlepacks system is (partially) the cause of the lack of players, not inversed.

How can you write this How many TM titles in the store for all environments : less than 20 ! And many are not played online. A title can be only for a solo campaign and i how some players love this. It's false to write titles catch many people from the "pure" game.

One more time : it is much more complicated to offer stuff to players (mod, script, objects, etc) without titles. Locators is not a clever system, it was just better than nothing before title packs were posible. I know very well about that because i made Raid (in Coast and in Canyon) before title packs exists. And it was much more difficult than now. Not for me but for players

If there were 10000 players online with access to all title packs, there would be much more titlepacks then there are now (more players, more creators, generally!).

I don't agree with this. I think right now the creators percentage in the community is huge. Maybe the higher one in TM history. So more players mean more titles but not with the same increasement.

I think you should be confident with Nadeo knowledge and creator experience. There are many reasons for titles packs. Technical ones but not only. The deal is not to choose between titles or not titles. If you want a Maniaplanet with all his features (script, objects, etc) we need Titles.

And we don't need titles for creators but for players. Because it brings diversity and fun to players. Trackmania wouldn't be the same game without track builders, moders, modelers, skinners, videomakers, scripters, screeners, etc. All this kind of creators could have a role in Title packs adventure. Not for them (they can do the same without title packs), but for the players and the community. Even if a part of the community is lazy and can't take a little bit of altitude to see a whole picture of the wonderful Maniaplanet ( to Nadeo)

[TheBigMiike]

If the Title Packs system doesn't change and if there were 10000 players online, so yes there would be more titlepacks... but if Nadeo creates a locator system which ask player to download some stuff before playing, titlepacks will only be created if a huge transformation of the game is necessary and only artists will create title packs => Less Title Packs

Don't mix it up! As yoshi already said, you imply that a different system exists. You're not talking about Titlepacks allone, but a Content sharing system + the titlepack system together. Your suggestion is good and very similar to mine: Add a different system for content sharing, but keep Titlepacks for insanely huge projects.
Just to keep things clear

Oh ! sorry i didn't understand your idea, I thought you wanted the title packs disappear completely and replace the title packs system by your suggestion. So i was thinking that doing your system and keeping the title pack system was great but if it's what you're thinking so i shut up ^^

I just don't want that the titlepack system disappear completly because i think it's a great thing for "artists" and i don't really think it's the cause of a lack of players. If Title pack system is well used by titlemakers so the titlepack system can be a great thing i think

ManiaPlanet without titlepacks isn't ManiaPlanet.