Maniaplanet Forum

UrinStein wrote:Why should anyone of us players deal with this, if it doesn't make anything better? Why should the developers waste their time with it, when they could try to make the game better?

Because Nadeo is building "a strong foundation for the future". Who cares if that foundation is better (gameplaywise) or more fun, as long as it's a "stronger foundation"?

I found a way how to disable fall damage! Force playermodel to Invasion Toad .

It really works, Toad have no penalty BUT it can use stamina only touching ground (no glide). Also no wall-jump and grappling hooks .

I think Nadeo added this feature to givr more movement strategy, but penalty is too high. I agree for stamina loss, but it should take less.

domino54 wrote:I think Nadeo added this feature to givr more movement strategy, but penalty is too high. I agree for stamina loss, but it should take less.

Please explain to me how it adds to movement strategy. I still don't understand.

For me it is obvious that it actually takes away movement strategy.

Before the update you could choose if you wanted to use stamina before landing or not. You had to actually use your brain and evaluate the situation before you used stamina for landing or not. You had two options when you were landing on the ground and it was upon you to make the better choice.

But with falling damage, the only choice left is using stamina before landing. Whatever you do, in whichever situation you are, you should use stamina before landing. This decision is forced on us. It takees away responsibility from the players. It takes away gameplay options from us players. It takes away strategy from movement.

So please, if you think otherwise, explain it further to me.

I doubt that there is "no strategy". On the contrary, there actually is but not that clear:

Being on a higher area always involved any kind of advantage, especially with the railgun for example in Elite. You always try to be on a higher position than the defenders because you can easily elimate them then. For instance on the maps ''Collided'', ''Rust'' and ''Paladin 2k14'': Good players will trie to get on the wall near the pole-area because the chance to win the match is much bigger due to the given advantage of the high area.

I think that Nadeo want to face this advantage with a risk, the so called ''falling damage''. Bascially, you think now: " Mhmm shall I reach the higher area with it's risk (Falling damage) and advantage (Easier chance to elimate your opponent) ? What might be more appropiate in this situation ?". So, the new decision which has to be done is actually before reaching a higher area. It isn't a ''one-dimensional decision''.

To be precise, going on a high area involves two risks, because when you leave this position, you are most likely in the air and as everybody knows: In the air you are an easy target.

Hopefully, it's clear for you now, Urinstein

Best greetings,
Soprah

UrinStein wrote: The question is not, if this feature is a problem or not. The question is: does the game benefit from this change?
Even if you think that falling damage is no problem for the gameplay, you just end up with a different game, not a better game. Why should anyone of us players deal with this, if it doesn't make anything better? Why should the developers waste their time with it, when they could try to make the game better?

If you actually think there are any benefits from Falling Damage I would like to hear/read them.
Until then I persist that this game deserves better than having these nonsense features implemented.

I agree with everything you say mate. But remember our concerns fall upon deaf ears. There is pretty much nothing we can do to change anything... executive control of this game belongs exclusively to Nadeo and even though they don't really have an interest in esports, the scene is directly dictated by them. All we can do if we want to get anything out of it anymore is to just accept it. It sucks.

The stamina penalty doesn't really offer anything new/cool in terms of gameplay. If anything, it serves to make the gameplay more grounded for maybe a second or two (who knows, maybe that was Nadeo's intention). I would like to hear the thought processes that went into implementing such a feature - maybe this could help us understand what the real intention was?

As for Soprah, I suggest everyone should just ignore his post - unless you want a good laugh.

polite as always..

Then please tell me why I deserve to be jeered.

Soprah wrote:I doubt that there is "no strategy". On the contrary, there actually is but not that clear:

Being on a higher area always involved any kind of advantage, especially with the railgun for example in Elite. You always trie to be on a higher position than the defenders because you can easily elimate them then. For instance on the maps ''Collided'', ''Rust'' and ''Paladin 2k14'': Good players will trie to get on the wall near the pole-area because the chance to win the match is much bigger due to the given advantage of the high area.

I think that Nadeo want to face this advantage with a risk, the so called ''falling damage''. Bascially, you think now: " Mhmm shall I reach the higher area with it's risk (Falling damage) and advantage (Easier chance to elimate your opponent) ? What might be more appropiate in this situation ?". So, the new decision which has to be done is actually before reaching a higher area. It isn't a ''one-dimensional decision''.

To be precise, going on a high area involves two risks, because when you leave this position, you are most likely in the air and as everybody knows: In the air you are an easy target.

Ok, let me break it down for you. You're stating this stuff like its a fact, when its really not.

The real fact is, players are still gonna take these high points regardless of the falling stamina penalty - because of the advantages that come with being on higher ground. You go up higher to get easier kills. Dropping down while there are already 2-3 players by the pole is 90% of the time gonna result in a round loss for you - you already stated that. So what difference is the stamina penalty gonna make to that? On these particular maps, a smart player won't still be on the highground when there are only 5 to 7 seconds left of a round anyway unless theres maybe only 1 player left and they are fully confident of making that shot. A smart player will find a different way to fall down without taking this stamina penalty. The falling damage is an example of a change intended for elite that will affect other titles (obstacle) in a bad way.

I'm just tired of these artificial decisions being inserted into the game when there is really no place for them. Theres a lot more I can say regarding your post Soprah but I really don't have the effort nor do I care. I just don't want you spreading misinformation around like its gospel.

Best greetings,
Caspa

UrinStein wrote: The question is not, if this feature is a problem or not. The question is: does the game benefit from this change?
Even if you think that falling damage is no problem for the gameplay, you just end up with a different game, not a better game. Why should anyone of us players deal with this, if it doesn't make anything better? Why should the developers waste their time with it, when they could try to make the game better?

If you actually think there are any benefits from Falling Damage I would like to hear/read them.
Until then I persist that this game deserves better than having these nonsense features implemented.

Walljumps was the best update to the game even though it took a while to get to where its at now. However what bothers me the most is that no work has been done to add more walljumping to most blocks, there are too many blocks in Shootmania that are clearly walljumpable (metal blocks and some others introduced in MP3). Nadeo should fix that crap before innovating on other things like falling damage, especially blocks that are crap for jumping on. Going offtopic now but seriously they should be focusing on this stuff naturally.

caspa wrote:The real fact is, players are still gonna take these high points regardless of the falling stamina penalty- because of the advantages that come with being on higher ground. You go up higher to get easier kills

I wouldn't recommend to rely on this fact on each situation. It depends on the situation. For example it wouldn't make sense to climb a high area when only ~10seconds and more than 1 defenders are left. You won't be able to elimate 2 or even 3 defenders on this high position, at least if you aren't the #1 esl elite player but I would even doubt that this guy would do 2< hits in less than 10 seconds each time.
Well, I think you underestimate the penalty of falling stamina and the power of stamina in general. It is worth to be considered because stamina allows you to move faster. Moving faster allows you to be a more difficult target for the defenders as well as you are able to quickly reach a more beneficial angle to elimate the opponent.
If there is only the half of your stamnia left, you can't make full use of these advantages - the more stamina you have, the more likely you are going to win this match. The aim plays an important role as well, but the stamina is an additional essential factor to win any match.

caspa wrote:On these particular maps, a smart player won't still be on the highground when there are only 5 to 7 seconds left of a round anyway unless theres maybe only 1 player left and they are fully confident of making that shot. A smart player will find a different way to fall down without taking this stamina penalty

Basically, there are always some special cases to refute any theory. I agree with most of them.

caspa wrote:A smart player will find a different way to fall down without taking this stamina penalty

This can be the smartest guy of the world if only 5-10seconds are left, he has to use the shortest way instead of focusing to bypass the penalty by making a detour. It makes clear that you aren't always able to bypass the falling damage.

There are always some special cases, but I still believe in the general idea that the stamina penalty involves strategy in the game. Even if you are able to bypass this penalty by not being on a high-position when it's less than 10seconds or by slowly going down by level for level, you knew ''I have to bypass this penalty anyhow''. You can decide how you want to accomplish that as I've mentioned above. The fact that you ''knew'' it, points out that you accepted the risk before going on the higher area. Accepting or not accepting is actually strategy because it includes decision-making. Sometimes you know how to handle with the risk, sometimes not (e.g. not enough time because you have to cap ).
This penalty is simply an additional risk/disadvantage for being on higher ground. Everything has it's advantages and disadvantages. To outweigh if it would make sense to accept the risk ( and thinking of how to treat with this risk ) or not adds more depth in the gameplay, even if it's not much.

Even if some people don't like this change, I like it. It involves strategy and I like strategy.

However, I fully agree that this gameplay change does unfortunate impacts to some good gamemodes such as the obstacle titlepack. The easiest solution might be that the titlepack creators would be able to disable this feature if it might broke their gameplay.

Greetings,
Soprah

I really like the new Stamina system... And i like things that change too so for me it's really great (for me)...

I think that players that leave games because of small changes are stupid... but we are not there for that

In games we need a balance betwen Strategy and Skill... here there are too many skill, we need more strategy.... and this kind of stuff add strategy...

So if it breaks some map, just fix the maps... there are always new blocks and stuff to add on map so you can fix maps in the same times... at each update i make a new version of my maps with new feature that make maps better (always playing on old unchanged map is very boring)... Shootmania is a game that will always be in evolution and it looks that some player don't want to be in this evolution... I feel bad for them