Maniaplanet Forum

Thanks Mr.Dvd.

Just to clarify : Building a single map with no restrictions whatsoever isn't hard per se.
However, campaign maps must follow many guidelines and rules.

- Generally one concept per map, or one "idea" per map so that the map can easily be identified. This can be shown by the use of specific blocs and surfaces, or situational hazards.
- Progressive introduction of gameplay mechanics : Some are specific to each environments (Drift in Canyon for example, Dirt surfaces in Valley or Stadium, Wood in lagoon, etc), others are common (Engine cutters, jumps, air control...)
- Progressive difficulty and accessibility : maps in general must be completed at low speed, while still being interesting to play. It's also natural that difficulty increases in harder levels.
- Map calibration and respawns : Flow in maps is important (to me, at least) and every single respawn must work.
- Replayability : As maps are meant to be hunted, common flaws, like hitting checkpoints because the player is too fast or cuts have to be avoided as much as possible.
- Believable design in maps : Blocks generally must not float in the air without pillar, and design has to be realistic to some extend.

Long story short : I can't throw in random blocks and do it the "easy" way, and community maps don't have to respect any of these rules when built.

K.

Miss wrote:It's not hard though, just takes some time to make a good one.

yeah I agree. It's realy easy. Everyone can be level designer. I don't understand why people think it is that hard to create things with video game. It's just games right ?

PapyChampy wrote:Long story short : I can't throw in random blocks and do it the "easy" way

you should have, random generator make so better map than campaign. It's awesomeness generator. Each time I generate a map, I feel the greatness. The flow.

xcsflotm wrote:

Miss wrote:It's not hard though, just takes some time to make a good one.

yeah I agree. It's realy easy. Everyone can be level designer. I don't understand why people think it is that hard to create things with video game. It's just games right ?

Assuming this was meant sarcastically - I did not say that, did I? For people who design games and levels for a living, it's common sense to follow the basic "rules" (as shown in PapyChampy's post). So in that sense, it's not hard, but it takes time.

If that post was not sarcastic, well..

Thanks K.

Miss wrote:

xcsflotm wrote:So in that sense, it's not hard, but it takes time.

well I'll try to be more serious for this one. If it takes time. No. It's not easy.
Doing a start, a S turn and a finish, (hello TMN) yeah, that is easy. The dumbest person on earth can do it, but, it's not something we can call a map. Doing a map is hard. That's why it takes time.
In trackmania it's really hard to make a good one. The block system is too much of a hassle for working correctly on the flowless of the drivin. And in turbo, in bonus, clearly, the gameplay is not adapted to the blocs available. In turbo for exemple, the rollercoaster blocks in lagoon are a joke. The camera is horrible, the car go way to fast to correctly drive on it. It's very hard to make a map when you can avoid hittin the walls.
So it takes time to work on the fluidity and to make the map interesting. And doesn't take time for nothing, it's hard.

xcsflotm wrote:well I'll try to be more serious for this one. If it takes time. No. It's not easy.
Doing a start, a S turn and a finish, (hello TMN) yeah, that is easy. The dumbest person on earth can do it, but, it's not something we can call a map. Doing a map is hard. That's why it takes time.
In trackmania it's really hard to make a good one. The block system is too much of a hassle for working correctly on the flowless of the drivin. And in turbo, in bonus, clearly, the gameplay is not adapted to the blocs available. In turbo for exemple, the rollercoaster blocks in lagoon are a joke. The camera is horrible, the car go way to fast to correctly drive on it. It's very hard to make a map when you can avoid hittin the walls.
So it takes time to work on the fluidity and to make the map interesting. And doesn't take time for nothing, it's hard.

Well.. this is where the discussion comes in about whether time == difficulty. As far as I'm aware, that's mostly a subjective topic. For me, programming is easy, I just need to put in some time. For someone inexperienced, programming could be perceived as hard. (As a result, one could put in a lot more time to counter it being "hard", so that's one argument.) *shrug*

xcsflotm wrote: In trackmania it's really hard to make a good one. The block system is too much of a hassle for working correctly on the flowless of the drivin. And in turbo, in bonus, clearly, the gameplay is not adapted to the blocs available. In turbo for exemple, the rollercoaster blocks in lagoon are a joke. The camera is horrible, the car go way to fast to correctly drive on it. It's very hard to make a map when you can avoid hittin the walls.

Have you even played the game? Guess not.

Miss wrote:Well.. this is where the discussion comes in about whether time == difficulty. As far as I'm aware, that's mostly a subjective topic. For me, programming is easy, I just need to put in some time. For someone inexperienced, programming could be perceived as hard. (As a result, one could put in a lot more time to counter it being "hard", so that's one argument.) *shrug*

I think I understand what you mean. And if I understand a little, the time it takes depends on the experience you have. And in a way it's not easy to take time to have the experience to do it easely. No ? When you started coding you directly thought it was easy ?

acceleracer_01 wrote:Have you even played the game? Guess not.

Have you even played something else ? Guess not. Game environment and gameplay are mode for one another and it can be seems in a lot of other games. Not here.

xcsflotm wrote: Have you even played something else ? Guess not. Game environment and gameplay are mode for one another and it can be seems in a lot of other games. Not here.

What you said makes no sense at all. Unfortunately you did not answer my question either...
Anyways, to furtherly extend what I was trying to imply in my previous post is that you're apparently judging the game without even having tried it yet (unless you've played the closed beta on the consoles), which is something you should never do.

PapyChampy wrote: - Replayability : As maps are meant to be hunted, common flaws, like hitting checkpoints because the player is too fast [...] have to be avoided as much as possible.

I personnaly disagree with that
For me, braking to avoid hitting a CP because of speed = braking to avoid screw a turn because you're too fast = braking to land sooner in a slope or on a turbo = well...braking.
Canyon A03 is the perfect example of what you feel, would it be a CP or a concrete Arch, it's the same for me, gameplay wise.
My preference being high speed straights finished by a highly visible U-Turn ^_^