Maniaplanet Forum

Hello luxxiz, and first of all, thank you for a decent post, that indeed diserves an answer.
PapyChampy got really fed up with this thread's negativity and lack of respect, so he is not planning on answering it again. I'll transmit it to him though.



Clear point needs to be understood : This forum when used to discuss with nadeo members, is answered by people working, this is a professional-to-customer relationship, so keep that in mind while answering. No swearing, no screaming, no suggestion of going to jail for 25 years for a mapmaker, no asking of somebody getting fired on your own selfish demand, no agressive behavior, and not any lack of respect to anyone on this forum are bearable.

You can value yourself without devaluing other people, seriously just reading thread like this.. It's everytime a surprise to see how low some people can go, while some are already so low they are now digging to the horizontal.
So to some of you, get your stuffs together, so next visit it's a real adult and constructive discussion we see, that make people want to answer. Honesty does not mean straight bashing, there's proper ways to express honesty, and it always comes with justifications.



Back to your post luxizz, i'm going to answer only on the beta 3 and microjump part, i'll leave the mapping part to the mappers. Those responses are also merging in it my personal opinions as i play Elite quite often.

About the micro-jump, you said it yourself, it was not intended to have such a tiny-micro-small-unrealistic-cheated jump. What makes it a problem now is that you had acces to that "bug" for a while and now you're frustated to lose it. I think we can agree that if it was always like it is today, we would not probably be talking about it as an issue.
May I remember you people like Talespin or Strenx that said in the first place that the micro jump invention was really bad because it was "too random", "taking out the risk/reward of jumping for sprinting", etc.
Then people complained about macro-users and asked for this minimal jump height.
And now new people complain about having a minimal jump height, of course.

I now it's frustrating to give up advantages that you had, but they were made on incoherences. You still have an advantage, it's just less overpowered. Yes you are the one talking about laser 1/3 reload on hit being to overpowered for the attacker, but what about the people that love hitting 3 guy in a short window of time, and have the skill of doing it ? 1/2 was apparently overpowered, so it went for 1/3 of the reload. Micro jump was overpowered now it's getting nerfed.

So now you have the explication about micro-jump, it's not a new one, overpowered for the people who can use it at it's best, and preventing macro-users.

The only reason we can go on arguing about it would be because you think "bugged" micro jump is not overpowered, right ?
I can understand that it's not a difference of power between an attacker and a defender, but between two players of different level or experience and that can be justified on some situations. But then imagine if in counter-strike they would now allow speedhack on servers and in competitions. BUT, only 1 000 players would be allowed to use it. You would have to have this hability/feature to start playing with other people, without it you just got raped by any player that learned how to use a speedhack.

This extreme caricature, is trying to makes you realise that it's not fun to get rape if you can't afford to spend 1month training for a ridiculous bugged technique. The argument that "pros are pros because they can do what other people can't do, so please leave this synthetic hability to be sure we stay pros" which i often read is like hearing a rich guy say "Rich people are rich because they have money, the poor people should stay poor, if they are richer we won't be rich anymore !".
So yes it reduces a gap between really good players and really really good players, but they will always be better if they are really the best at what they do. It's not game mechanics that makes you lose a game, and that's because they are the same for everybody.

See it on the long term, less and less people are playing quake because if they try to, they just got raped by people playing it for years and years non stop. It's not fun to get raped or humiliated, games are made to be fun, shootmania is a game, let other people have fun with you in shootmania.

What i would add to this, because i haven't seen any body raising this point, is that nerfing the micro-jump just grows much bigger the importance of the map and the mappers. It was even clearer when we only had normal jump. But when you can't microjump automatically to escape real quick, you can't still use little asperity and verticality of some blocks to use your stamina real quick without jumping. It makes the game more strategic, less mechanic and more micro-intelligent.
I think what's fun to do, and makes a good player good, is finding your way around difficulties, and micro-jump when mastered is just the opposite of difficulty. If you can escape every-time you make a mistake or you are in danger, the game is EASY.



I hope it answerd parts of your questions, if you would like to go on arguing on the micro-jump matter, i invite you to do it on this thread : http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic. ... p&start=50
A thread that would need polite and constructive people like you after taking a quick look at all the (uncenssored) messages that i had the pleasure to read.

idro wrote: I don't know who you are and also never saw you on a big competition. After reading all your comments I'm sorry to say but you sound 10/10 ridiculous.

This is not the "pro's" asking for something, this is the competitive community. If maps like Rust, Malevolence and even Ironfist aren't suitable for ESWC or for the path nadeo want's this game to go, we can UPDATE those maps. It's not about giving no credit to the ones who dedicated time to make them, its using their hard work and making it BETTER and PLAYABLE for today's CRITERIA.

Once again I think you're defending something you know not too much about.

Now you sound ridiculous ... If I don't like how something looks like, let me change it for the greater good and put my own name on something that has nothing to do with my own ability to create. Sounds silly, right? Okay, I know that China is doing this with industrial products but it does not mean that it is good or fair to the inventors of the original product.
And this is, what kryw did with his move and what killaprodtm pointed out.

killaprodtm wrote: Respect -1
Karma -1

Rating

How can you be so spoiled? I love your combo works and some of your elite maps, but this is just disrespectful in so many ways...
"Jump on the train, yeah, that's how I get my karma in this community."

Nevertheless, of course you can change a map if you want to. But if this maps will be played then is completely up to the ESWC. And to be honest, even if the maps not going to be changed you are all in for the money either way. After following this discussion over the last few weeks, I have to conclude that the SM community is as far away from a good spirited community as the LoL one. Congratulations for this.

Also, as in trackmania, custom maps are designed to be an additional challenge for the players. Official Mappacks in TMNF were always different and had some badly designed maps in it; but it was never suggested to be deleted - instead people used some more hours on it to train.

killaprodtm wrote:Also, as in trackmania, custom maps are designed to be an additional challenge for the players. Official Mappacks in TMNF were always different and had some badly designed maps in it; but it was never suggested to be deleted - instead people used some more hours on it to train.

Hey Killa , you seem like a nice guy... I see that you really care mate and thanks for the time you spended on making this map. I just wanted to say that u shouldnt compare race-games to FPS. I agree with your argument, but im not sure it is 100% correct for SM. Just take a look at other shooters. The best example is CS where 1map is already played for 14y.

In order to win racegames you have to have skill. But its individual. You race & you race 1min maps over & over again. Its much more repetitive than a FPS game. I hope u understand
In FPS competitive scenes there arent a lot of mapchanges & or at least not every week.

I made a post a few pages back that every mapper deserves a chance & I am sure you agree with me.
This post is for everyone : Contact ESWC admins & mania-actue to setup a POLL. Its the fairest solution.

I can honestly not believe this kind of behaviour. I'm not even all that mad that most of you hate my maps, sure I was expecting that reacting from you guys in the beginning.
It's more that you are only wanting to play on the same style of maps, which are to me mostly ugly, un-intresting maps which bring very little to no depth to the game. This really needs to change.
There is so much more to shootmania than that.

The editor has become full of new blocks, block combinations, and more. Which can give a lot more creativeness in ideas, and I am not only talking about structures which are "good looking", this can also mean creating more interesting gameplay on a map with more depth, better atmosphere, ect.
It's just that the competitive players are so used to playing on regular esl maps that it's becoming harder and harder for any competitive player to become used to a map like that. Seeing from the behaviour in this thread I would expect anyone of you to not even give it a chance while only having looked at it, no matter how good or bad the map is. Shootmania is still a new game, the fact that you guys are getting pissed off at nadeo for adding regular updates while they are just trying to improve the game is just plain selfish. Gab explained it perfectly in his post.
Also, you guys are acting like you're superior above everyone else just because you know how to play this game. Your opinion doesn't become any better if you play this game 24/7. I've been told by you guys that I don't know anything about gameplay.. I mean really? I've probably played this game longer than most of everyone here (since I got invited to one of the early alpha's due to me being a moderator on mania-exchange) and I've seen the game, the players, gameplay, user built maps develop by time. And not only that, I do play Elite quite frequently, and have seen or even played a map competitively. Just giving a direct statement about me not knowing anything about the gameplay without even knowing me or having ever talked to me before is just stupid, or isn't it?

Also, comparing a game like shootmania to counterstrike is just silly.. Counterstrike is an old game, and a lot more popular than shootmania, while shootmania new, and still in the works, getting tons of updates still (which you guys should be thankful for). Also there is a reason an editor exists for shootmania, and why it's made so simple for anyone to use. To me shootmania is based on having any user being able to create a map. To have as much as diversity as possible. Having people come up with new fresh, creative ideas. I would rather compare it to trackmania. Which also does in fact have a huge competitive community.
In trackmania if someone were to release a track that contained new, innovative ideas, never seen block combinations it would get praised by the community, which I can totally see why. Even if the track didn't work that well people would give the author constructive feedback on what they didn't like, and how the author can improve for his/her future tracks. Most of you only seem to be spouting hateful comments, using swearwords, stating that "I am killing the game." I'd rather say this ridiculous, selfish behaviour you guys are showing not only in this thread, but online against other players aswell is killing the game. What do you even mean by killing the game?


About kryw's maps, sure I guess they'd be slightly improved, but still what the hell? First of all taking somone else's maps without asking for permission is not only extremely rude, but also really uncreative and just stealing. Also the fact that you uploaded these maps to your own account on mania-exchange not even cretiting the original author just strengthens my arguements. Killa was in fact right, you are not allowed to upload edit's of other people's maps to mania-exchange, especially if you just placed a couple blocks, barely causing any change at all(from the looks).
So I kindly request you to hide or delete the maps from your mania-exchange profile.

Thanks for reading to everyone who did, I really hope things are going to change drastically in the future.
Cheers, basbaas

I bet this is going to get ignored yet again

dreammyw0w wrote: I see that you really care mate and thanks for the time you spended on making this map.

What map???

dreammyw0w wrote:I just wanted to say that u shouldnt compare race-games to FPS. I agree with your argument, but im not sure it is 100% correct for SM. Just take a look at other shooters. The best example is CS where 1map is already played for 14y.

Of course you cannot compare TM with SM to 100 percent. Both games have a map editor and having that in your game should bring a lot of diversity, but also, you cannot compare SM with other shooters in the mapping segment;
CS comparisation is the classic - The map editor was too difficult to use for most of the players, so they kept playing the standard maps. I will not lie, I love the standard maps in CS, but only because I played them for like 8 years already. Servers with custom maps are also just low populated and therefore uninteresting for many.

I agree, some maps like Collided are awesome and should definetly be played often in the future, but a map editor, as it has been in TM for 10 years (soon 10 year anniversaire ) is a feature of the game to never stop the fun and creativity.

Let me introduce you my example: I opened an Elite server for one month and we were playing custom maps and some Nadeo and Mappackmaps only. 40 % of the people, who were about to join were leaving after seeing a custom map, because they rather played the offishal maps. The other 60 % were playing all the maps with us - I also played with bas and his maps alot. We used the server to 1. Explore and learn different strategies , 2. Get feedback of maps built by someone who wanted to test them and 3. Have alot of fun.
And we had. It turned out to be a great success to have some custom maps. Some maps were even downloaded and taken to another's server. That's why I am comparing TM to SM, because the ecomomy with maps is mostly the same as in Trackmania.

To support Bas as a friend and player - He has put all of his time to make these maps. It is really a shame how you flame against him. He didn't build them to piss you off (he wasn't even planning to make them official maps); he tested alot with different players, got feedback, reworked and after some weeks I witnessed the amazing changes in his maps. We had alot of fun with them on the server - and alot of competition. You can play every map seriously, just don't blame it on maps.

Before you say something bad about maps, have you ever built a map completely by yourself? Do it. Start with nothing but some of your own ideas. To make a perfect map you need time, creativity, patience and cooperation. Even Papy tested his maps with the Nadeo team !


Stay positive and friendly. Noone is here to ruin your competition, except for you maybe.

killaprodtm wrote:

dreammyw0w wrote: I see that you really care mate and thanks for the time you spended on making this map.

What map???

dreammyw0w wrote:I just wanted to say that u shouldnt compare race-games to FPS. I agree with your argument, but im not sure it is 100% correct for SM. Just take a look at other shooters. The best example is CS where 1map is already played for 14y.

Of course you cannot compare TM with SM to 100 percent. Both games have a map editor and having that in your game should bring a lot of diversity, but also, you cannot compare SM with other shooters in the mapping segment;
CS comparisation is the classic - The map editor was too difficult to use for most of the players, so they kept playing the standard maps. I will not lie, I love the standard maps in CS, but only because I played them for like 8 years already. Servers with custom maps are also just low populated and therefore uninteresting for many.

I agree, some maps like Collided are awesome and should definetly be played often in the future, but a map editor, as it has been in TM for 10 years (soon 10 year anniversaire ) is a feature of the game to never stop the fun and creativity.

Let me introduce you my example: I opened an Elite server for one month and we were playing custom maps and some Nadeo and Mappackmaps only. 40 % of the people, who were about to join were leaving after seeing a custom map, because they rather played the offishal maps. The other 60 % were playing all the maps with us - I also played with bas and his maps alot. We used the server to 1. Explore and learn different strategies , 2. Get feedback of maps built by someone who wanted to test them and 3. Have alot of fun.
And we had. It turned out to be a great success to have some custom maps. Some maps were even downloaded and taken to another's server. That's why I am comparing TM to SM, because the ecomomy with maps is mostly the same as in Trackmania.

To support Bas as a friend and player - He has put all of his time to make these maps. It is really a shame how you flame against him. He didn't build them to piss you off (he wasn't even planning to make them official maps); he tested alot with different players, got feedback, reworked and after some weeks I witnessed the amazing changes in his maps. We had alot of fun with them on the server - and alot of competition. You can play every map seriously, just don't blame it on maps.

Before you say something bad about maps, have you ever built a map completely by yourself? Do it. Start with nothing but some of your own ideas. To make a perfect map you need time, creativity, patience and cooperation. Even Papy tested his maps with the Nadeo team !


Stay positive and friendly. Noone is here to ruin your competition, except for you maybe.

Seems to me mapmackers have jumpd on the "be positive" wagon , when they actually are the first to get mad if elite players say the maps are bad ; and elite player are being considered rude and offensive just because 2 or 3 of them have actually had bad manners on the forum...

can we just have a mature debate reasoning and thinking like smart people? I am one of the people who complained about the map, i answered bas that in my opinion the map were bad for the gameplay and other stuff in the most polite way and i got treated like somebody who was showing no respect , when the first thing i said is actually : i respect your work but in my opinion the map should be remade. i don't see where that is being rude or is flaming? is something is bad made you should take feedbacks as positive energy to work and get better results just sayin again for the 4th time , if they way i write sounds rude i apologize but im just having a debate here and im showing respect to everybody (just to answer personally to your post )

sigh.. why do you guys always ignore my posts, I wrote a long wall of text toraki you can read it if you want.

TORAKI wrote:Seems to me mapmackers have jumpd on the "be positive" wagon , when they actually are the first to get mad if elite players say the maps are bad ; and elite player are being considered rude and offensive just because 2 or 3 of them have actually had bad manners on the forum...

can we just have a mature debate reasoning and thinking like smart people? I am one of the people who complained about the map, i answered bas that in my opinion the map were bad for the gameplay and other stuff in the most polite way and i got treated like somebody who was showing no respect , when the first thing i said is actually : i respect your work but in my opinion the map should be remade. i don't see where that is being rude or is flaming? is something is bad made you should take feedbacks as positive energy to work and get better results just sayin again for the 4th time , if they way i write sounds rude i apologize but im just having a debate here and im showing respect to everybody (just to answer personally to your post )

It wouldn't have looked rude if you wouldn't have done this
- Permaban of maps
- Looking for mistakes on Bas's map to make him look like a loser (and you must be an expert then, ggggg)
- State that you talk for the whole elite scene
- Trying to compress your anger into complains about Papychampy's opinions
- This one explains itself:

i don't know if your acting like a kid or what? brother u made a map, u failed .

- This

Seems to me mapmackers have jumpd on the "be positive" wagon , when they actually are the first to get mad if elite players say the maps are bad

=> Every mapper is open for feedback, but the first thing you stated was this:

and please don't say we just need to adapt and study them coz it feels like somebody is slapping me in the face and i need to just get over it..

..which drops your level of seriousness by 100 already. No mapmaker would take you serious after this one.

This is what you dropped in order to gain the attention. It mostly looks like you went to this forum to pour gasoline in ashes, hoping you would light them to a fire.

Beeing positive is not bad; why is it? Fun fact: A positive way of life extends your lifetime.

sigh.. why do you guys always ignore my posts, I wrote a long wall of text toraki you can read it if you want.

[EDITED : Don't use the S word]

GAB