Planets

Discuss everything related to Maniaplanet.

Moderator: English Moderator

User avatar
TStarGermany
Posts: 466
Joined: 15 Jun 2010, 11:05
Contact:

Re: Planets

Post by TStarGermany »

Akbalder wrote:
TStarGermany wrote:get the info how many planets have been robbed at the end of the month.
When you pay your taxes in real life, do you also say that you have been robbed? :shock:
Well, it depends, doesn't it? I live in a country where the fiscal system is constitutionally obliged to obeye the achievement principle and therefor has legislated an INCOME TAX. That's ok, depending on how high it is.

A WEALTH TAX, like the one in MP, is something very different.
In this system, the same money is taxed MULTIPLE times, over and over again and is therefor reduced each month until the point where it has been eaten up 100%. And as if that wasn't bad enough, in the case of MP, this wealth tax seems to be extraordinarily high.

Even communists wouldn't have the balls to legislate something like that because they know they don't have enough bullets for all the people trying to flee the state borders with their belongings under their arms. Yes, such a system is full blown robbery.

If you want a solid base to keep inflation stable, beautiful, nothing easier than that - re-introduce a transfer tax, strictly aligned with the amount of new monetary funds which are introduced into the system. Macroeconomics 101.

And to come from abstracts to something particularly MP related:
I was planning to cooperate with Bueddl/Zero to build up a proper online casino manialink, with all sorts of games for people to enjoy. The nature of properly regulated (and programmed) gambling is that the bank has only a very slight percentual advantage to win more money from the customer than the customer wins from the bank.

This slight advantage is what casino banks make their living from. But with a wealth tax, the bank's funds will be constantly eaten up, making this enterprise a negative value for any investor = Project is dead before it is born.
Hylis
Nadeo
Nadeo
Posts: 3933
Joined: 14 Jun 2010, 11:58

Re: Planets

Post by Hylis »

TStarGermany wrote:Even communists wouldn't have the balls to legislate something like that because they know they don't have enough bullets for all the people trying to flee the state borders with their belongings under their arms. Yes, such a system is full blown robbery.
You are talking about borders, but the fact is that if all account of the world where based on the same money, this is exactly the same system that would apply to fight against inflation.

How can you think that if everybody double their amount of money, that everybody will be two times richer. They will just be exactly as rich as before. Otherwise, it would like if you would be angry to get 1 euro for 2 marks.

I hope you can understand that.

Otherwise, we would have to increase the prices by the same ratio that we are subtracting you planets. Do you think that the current world in which we are living is without this type of phenomenon? This is the daily question from the European Central Bank or Yuan valuation etc. I am far from an economic expert, but I think it is mathematical logic here.

If you want us to stop taking planets, we need to stop to give planets. If we stop to give planets, the economy stops and you don't get some. By providing EPs against taxes, we introduce a new value in the economy that enables to simply fight against inflation while keeping a record of your success. Server depot prices will decrease for you, by example, since it is not a 'cost' but a 'trust' concept.
User avatar
kripkee
Posts: 920
Joined: 21 Jun 2010, 14:04

Re: Planets

Post by kripkee »

"Inflation"
Is this word really useful for "virtual money" ?

It is just a question.
ethido
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Aug 2011, 20:41

Re: Planets

Post by ethido »

TStarGermany wrote: A WEALTH TAX, like the one in MP, is something very different.
In this system, the same money is taxed MULTIPLE times, over and over again and is therefor reduced each month until the point where it has been eaten up 100%. And as if that wasn't bad enough, in the case of MP, this wealth tax seems to be extraordinarily high.
+1

I dont think, that it is a good way, to tax each month the whole Planets of a player.


just a small example here:

A player has 100.000 Planets
and each month there came 10%taxes

100.000 * 0,9^12 = 28.242 [in case of no income]

this means, that you will loose ~72% of your Planets per year...


I really like the idea of taking taxes to prevent "inflation" but i think taking taxes again and again from the same money is no ideal solution.
User avatar
TStarGermany
Posts: 466
Joined: 15 Jun 2010, 11:05
Contact:

Re: Planets

Post by TStarGermany »

kripkee wrote:"Inflation"
Is this word really useful for "virtual money" ?
It is just a question.
A legit one. For planets, the reference frame for value is very small and in opposite to real life, the participants of this artificial economic system are not forced to participate, consume or produce anything of value, making this economy's GDP a virtual one.

Parts of that might change in the future, depending on what will be possible to buy for planets but right now, the question is a rather abstract, systemic one.
Hylis wrote:How can you think that if everybody double their amount of money, that everybody will be two times richer
Well, in an economic system with immense growth, even this scenario could be correct. But that hasn't got to do anything with the problem I'm targeting:

I'm not saying you should stop taxation. I say: Stop the wrong form of taxation.

Income or transfer tax: OK.
Welfare tax: BAD.


On paper, you could try to counter inflation with the (hyper)deflationary effects of a 1:1 takeaway/giveaway mechanism, leaving the overall amount of money the same, while the amount of active participants in the economy becomes larger, producing and consuming more and more. And from time to time, you can alter the tax percentage to counter the effects of the ever-growing deflation.

What you end up with, is a very effective wealth redistribution machinery.

The problem:
The motivation to offer goods and earn planets will be eradicated almost entirely, since every amount of previously earned funds is reduced to -zero- within a forseeable time frame.
That means, that every effort you make, is ultimately rewarded with: Nothing.

That is the very failure of communism. I didn't call it like that just for fun.
ethido wrote:I really like the idea of taking taxes to prevent "inflation" but i think taking taxes again and again from the same money is no ideal solution.
It's the opposite. It's robbery.
Hylis
Nadeo
Nadeo
Posts: 3933
Joined: 14 Jun 2010, 11:58

Re: Planets

Post by Hylis »

Income or transfer tax: OK.
Welfare tax: BAD.

On paper, you could try to counter inflation with the (hyper)deflationary effects of a 1:1 takeaway/giveaway mechanism, leaving the overall amount of money the same, while the amount of active participants in the economy becomes larger, producing and consuming more and more. And from time to time, you can alter the tax percentage to counter the effects of the ever-growing deflation.

If you give 1000 planets per month to everybody, and they have 5000 in average. Then, you increase the number of planets of 20% per month. So, if you don't remove 20% of the planets per month, then you have inflation, meaning that players will have 6000 planets in average. If you have 12000, it means that you have two times more than them. If you remove 20% for them, and 20% for you, then you have 10000 and they have 5000. You have the double.

If we accept that there is an increase of planets of 20% per month, then it means prices should increase of 20% per month. If you do this, with 12000 you can buy 10 things at 1200, but if we reduce the price & the planets of 20%, then you can acquire 10 things at 1000 with your 10 000.

What can be under critic, if you feel something unfair, is that we give 1000 planets per month to every player, including you. Because, it means they have a 'salary' that is 20% of a lifetime of wealth.. which is huge! So, if we wanted to slow down the decrease of currency value, we would have to give less to people. Let's say we give only 5%. Then, they would get 250 per month. But if they get 250 per month, they will buy you 4 times less stuff, or stuff at 4 times smaller prices... meaning, from the start, that you would have only 25% of the wealth you can have by selling stuff. With 20% per month, it takes a year to be at 25%. With this system, you are at 25% from day one... and you still have to accept a 5% decrease of money value, or inflation would make your own planets worth 5% less.

Anyway, if you really want to debate this position, you will have to accept to get further in the arguments, instead of calling it communism.

From what I have read, this economist kind of support this type of concept (anti inflation currency)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lietaer

if you increase taxes to diminish the quantity of planets on the market, then you slow down the economy. Do not underestimate the negative effect of saying that taxes gets higher when you need to remove more planets, since it slow down the economy, and if people continue to get planets, taxes would have to be even higher is economy is slowed down etc. We have removed all taxes, we have just made two single values to be the rule of economy: monthly salary & average wealth of players. The planets are then made to be worth the same on the long run, meaning that if you sell something 100 planets in a ManiaCredits pak today, it will still be of the same value and interest for players in one year, without having to modify your prices.

And in addition to all this economical system, we introduced a link to a concept of "being" instead of "having" In the future of Maniaplanet, you will be acknowledge of "being" someone who did economically great.

I am really open to discussion since I know it is a very sensible subject. In our society where there is only one unit (money) and not the (glory), then it is off course more complicated to see. But we are meant to "be" & to "have".

And to be is not 'nothing' by the way!

If you want us to thing something that may improve your situation, I would recommend to provide positive feelings. You may say:"I would like to be able to stay rich, even if I do nothing more" or "I would like to be able to acquire such a fortune, so I can buy much later tons of things, but not today" or "Ok, I understand your system, but I miss the ability to increase my standard of life on the long run"

For example, if you say the last sentence, I would say:"maybe we can create a long term salary, where you can spend your planets before the month, and get them distributed on your monthly salary, instead of 'losing them'" So, if you have 1 000 000, then you would give it back and get 50 000 back per month during 20 months. You would still have to pay the anti-inflation contribution at the end of each month, but it would give your more time to spend it and secure a long term better wealth capacity.

Maybe I am doing a big mistake in my last suggestion, so I would not say we would do it. But I am trying to explain how to think in order to first understand all the reasons behind in order to be in the discussion, instead of making really to fast assumptions, judgement and accusation of "worst than communism guy" It is funny since I had to say that we are not trying to re-create 'capitalism' to other accusations ^_^
User avatar
TStarGermany
Posts: 466
Joined: 15 Jun 2010, 11:05
Contact:

Re: Planets

Post by TStarGermany »

Last edited by TStarGermany on 07 Sep 2012, 10:21, edited 1 time in total.
Hylis
Nadeo
Nadeo
Posts: 3933
Joined: 14 Jun 2010, 11:58

Re: Planets

Post by Hylis »

(I will read after tomorrow what you will write, and insert text here the day after maybe :mrgreen:)
User avatar
kapsubm
Posts: 238
Joined: 16 Aug 2011, 23:38
Location: Vienna, Austria
Contact:

Re: Planets

Post by kapsubm »

anyhow,
are there news about the "income" for active players on the servers ? -
I havent seen any planets for that yet. only the tax. maybe nadeo can check that ?
login: cs.esports type of Server : platform.
i really think, the income of script or platform is bugged, so if anyone can please check this ? :roll:
Join CSeSports Platform Server

[url=maniaplanet://:maniaplanet://#join=cs.esports@Platform@nadeolive]CS.eSportsPlatform 0-60K With Fox Control[/url]
[url=maniaplanet://:maniaplanet://#join=csesports2@SMStorm]CS.eSports SM Royal 0-60 k 40 players With Smart Servercontroller[/url]
[url=maniaplanet://:maniaplanet://#join=cs.esports1@TMCanyon]CS.eSports Stunts in Canyon with Smart Servercontroller[/url]
Post Reply

Return to “Maniaplanet”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest