List of all known bugs

[Omnixor]

for me, even if respawn is again set on enter, it's still bugged and doesn't always work...

[The_Big_Boo]

It has been used in other cool ways, to ensure that a driver is keeping a certain speed to complete a given section, but allow to slow the car down for a killer curve at the end of that section, etc.

This is exactly the worst case of brake boosting (and this is the most used case). Why? Because if you're better than the track author, the boost will do anything but help. I saw too many tracks where you can't take nice curves because you can't slow down the way you want. TM needs only 4 buttons and some still want to remove 2 of them... Imho, braking or releasing throttle is an important part of driving skills so I don't like being forced to keep accelerating.

then it goes against how TrackMania physics have worked in the past.

If I follow your reasoning, what would you say about air control? It isn't the same in TMS and TMN than in TMO so TMS and TMN go against how TrackMania physics have worked in the past.
What about drift in TMN? It goes against how TrackMania physics have worked in the past because drifting always meant losing time (except in Island beta but that was a bug).
Even worst: on Snow you can be boosted backwards even if you're not on the boost block anymore, because the effect stays a bit after it, the same way it does in Canyon (I agree it's much more visible on it). You can't really say that Snow goes against how TrackMania physics have worked in the past, right?

Each environment has its unique gameplay and to me, the fact that boost effects stay longer on Canyon is part of its gameplay. I don't know the reasons which leads to this decision (because if it was relying on me, there won't be any boost at all ^^), but anyway, it's not a bug just because you don't like it.

[eyebo]

A big +1 on everything you said The_Big_Boo. I've made forum posts about this before on TMX... but adding reverse boosters (in any environment) carries with it the expectation that the author perfectly calculated it so that I don't have to brake at all. Sometimes it works, but generally it does not, and I end up having to brake anyway. And it just feels horrible to me.

Engine killers (freewheeling zones) have been used for a similar purpose sometimes. If the sections after them are overcalculated, it can result in similar frustration... but in this case... it's usually because I'm not fast enough.

I'd much rather the author leave the section with too much speed and let me carry the responsibility, as the driver, of slowing down or drifting the section myself in order to keep my own speed under control. For me, it's a lot more fun that way.

Boosters in Canyon of course carry over the boost for a while after using them... and even after braking. I've actually used them in the correct direction (to increase speed) and put them before some U-Turns. It's fun because you have to brake hard to drift the turn, but the power of the booster is still active on the car... and as soon as you exit the drift... you get this big boost of speed. I love that about Canyon.

@TribeWars and fng_thatoneguy So, as you can see, the effect of the booster is still active for a while... even in the normal direction. So it only makes sense for it to remain active for a while after a reverse booster as well. It's a feature, not a bug.

Adding one: after installing the update, chat doesn't work. C, T, enter keys that are listed in my inputs do not actually do anything. I cannot access chat in any server I join in multiplayer.

Have you also reported this in the Beta area:
http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewforum.php?f=415

[fng_thatoneguy]

It has been used in other cool ways, to ensure that a driver is keeping a certain speed to complete a given section, but allow to slow the car down for a killer curve at the end of that section, etc.

This is exactly the worst case of brake boosting (and this is the most used case). Why? Because if you're better than the track author, the boost will do anything but help. I saw too many tracks where you can't take nice curves because you can't slow down the way you want. TM needs only 4 buttons and some still want to remove 2 of them... Imho, braking or releasing throttle is an important part of driving skills so I don't like being forced to keep accelerating.

I see your point and agree with it some. However, boost braking in tracks doesn't keep one from still needing to brake and throttle at the right times, it just adds an extra challenge and is another way creative authors make tracks. Some like it (me), some don't (you). But the people should have their say... they can vote it down if they don't like it on the servers that allow that and the admins can choose to remove them; or the player can choose to not play on those servers (and/or vote next map, etc.) Not a big deal; but the ability to use blocks however an author chooses shouldn't be restricted because someone doesn't like it.

then it goes against how TrackMania physics have worked in the past.

If I follow your reasoning, what would you say about air control? It isn't the same in TMS and TMN than in TMO so TMS and TMN go against how TrackMania physics have worked in the past.
What about drift in TMN? It goes against how TrackMania physics have worked in the past because drifting always meant losing time (except in Island beta but that was a bug).
Even worst: on Snow you can be boosted backwards even if you're not on the boost block anymore, because the effect stays a bit after it, the same way it does in Canyon (I agree it's much more visible on it). You can't really say that Snow goes against how TrackMania physics have worked in the past, right?

Each environment has its unique gameplay and to me, the fact that boost effects stay longer on Canyon is part of its gameplay. I don't know the reasons which leads to this decision (because if it was relying on me, there won't be any boost at all ^^), but anyway, it's not a bug just because you don't like it.

I think that last quote needed to include the rest of the statement; it was either misunderstood or taken out of context. I'm not saying it's a defect because I don't like it, I'm saying that old school TrackManias, in all environments I've played in that have had tracks that use reverse boost (or "brake boost") have worked the same in regards to what we've been discussing. I will try to explain in different words than my last post in hopes of better articulating.

In previous TM games, if I were to hit a boost block backwards and get kicked backwards, then hit my gas while still traveling backwards, my car would attempt to accelerate forward, fighting against the effects of the reverse boost.

What TribeWars was saying, if I understood correctly, is that hitting the gas made the car accelerate more in the reverse direction (as if he were hitting the brake, not the gas.) That is what I'm saying the defect is, not the duration of reverse acceleration provided by the boost. The duration of the reverse acceleration isn't an issue; what is an issue is if hitting the gas doesn't fight against the reverse acceleration (since gas should apply an opposing force in an attempt to make the car go forward instead of backward.)

Does that make more sense? If it is true that hitting the gas while being accelerated backwards due to hitting the brake boost makes your car accelerate faster backwards like you're really hitting the brake, then it is a defect, correct?

(I hope I'm not sounding like I'm copping an attitude. I don't want you taking offense Boo, I just want to make sure I'm articulating (and confirming) what TribeWars brought up. I think he has a legitimate defect if explained properly.) I think a video is appropriate if one of us can duplicate.

I have seen other weird things happen with physics in Canyon that I haven't seen in any of the other enviros. Some have been discussed here and never been fixed (like auto-brake after bumping a wall.) This may have something to do with one of those; kind of sounds related to me... actually it sounds like the same effect, just with opposite factors.

What I mean by that is, after the wall is bumped, the car is still moving in a forward direction, and the user is still hitting the gas. But the reverse is applied, as if the user was hitting the brake. So same effect, but reverse directions.

Anyway, if I haven't made more sense, I apologize and will be happy to try to find another way to explain; or someone else who gets what I mean come help clarify. But I think this issue needs investigation in the way the physics are handled...

Thanks for your considerations and discussions Boo; much appreciated!

[eyebo]

I've re-examined TribeWars post.

The bug is the fact that the booster has an effect on the cars acceleration, for a few seconds after you passed it.

As The_Big_Boo said, that's normal behaviour.

But there's a key line regarding this. Here's the critical sentence. I'll underline what is the key words I think I've been missing.

When driving through the boosters (try it out with the red ones), the opposite way intended (aka boost brake) the car slows down (and goes eventually backwards, even with keeping accelarating) after passing the boost block.

So to demonstrate one way in which this is affected. I made a video.
http://youtu.be/yeV_Q19COCI

I've added titles over each video to tell you what I'm doing with my keys at any given moment.

In the top left one where I'm holding accelerate the entire time, the car should slow down since I'm asking the car to accelerate forwards (by pressing the gas), but instead it continues to drive backwards.

There are other ways to demonstrate strange behaviour with the boosters, but this one seems the most like a "bug" to me.

[The_Big_Boo]

The duration of the reverse acceleration isn't an issue; what is an issue is if hitting the gas doesn't fight against the reverse acceleration (since gas should apply an opposing force in an attempt to make the car go forward instead of backward.)

All my apologies, I misunderstood the issue. I tested it a bit with a red booster and there's indeed some weird things happening here. To complete TribeWars's report, here's a sum up:

• It happens only when driving forward
• After the boost, if your car is still going forward, holding throttle will make you drive backward whereas releasing it will make slow down as if there were no boosts
• After the boost, if your car is going backward, it's even more complex:
  • Holding throttle will make you accelerating backward
  • Braking will make you slow down but not as much as not braking
  • Braking then holding throttle again will make you brake the way it should, but when the boost effect vanishes there is a tiny backward acceleration before it brakes again and finally goes forward

Unfortunately, I don't think it will be fixed (because of the risk to break official times) but I may be wrong. TMO environments had a similar bug before TMU (which didn't even need boosts to happen) so why not?


Edit: thanks for the video eyebo

[Omnixor]

perfect excuse. "we had same bug years ago, so why not let it be in the new game?"

[xanatos.chimera]

Rebinding my keys did nothing to help the issue.

<aside>
Why must I report things in the Beta forums for a RELEASED title? Shouldn't there be a bug thread in the Release forum? Or was I a fool who paid for a beta product...
</aside>

[The_Big_Boo]

perfect excuse. "we had same bug years ago, so why not let it be in the new game?"

First, entering a nice discussion about TrackMania physics in such a way is not really polite.
Second, I'm not talking in the name of Nadeo on such a subject because it's not under my responsibility to decide if it'll be fixed, nor to fix it.
Third, I meant "why not will this one be fixed". I thought it was clear enough, sorry if you misunderstood...

[fng_thatoneguy]

There is definitely no need for anyone to be flaming about this. This is a touchy issue that involves a core piece of the game engine for this environment. As a software developer myself, I appreciate Boo's position on this. The issues does need to be carefully thought out and investigated to see if there is a minimal impact way to resolve the issue(s) without introducing new defects with ill-effects as well.

Thanks for checking it out, and I assume Boo will be handing the information off to whoever is in charge of that area of development (since he mentioned he doesn't make the decisions for that part.)

I do still wonder if the code that causes this issue is similar to the code that is responsible for the auto-brake after hitting the wall defect, and the other that is similar sounding to what Boo said about a defect in TMO where a boost wasn't needed to reproduce the issue. I've seen at rare times where I'll be changing acceleration (toggling between gas and brake) and all the sudden the car will lurch in the opposite direction before going the way I'm trying to make it go. This happens at slow speeds... I've only seen it when it was necessary to do so (really close to a cliff and trying to keep myself from falling off, for example.)

Anyway, thanks again for investigating. I think fixes for these should still be pursued, especially if they can make the overall experience better. I realize that it might make some tracks partly, if not completely unplayable because old rhythm based on old physics will be thrown off, but if it's overall better, we'll get over it and thank you in the end.

Oh and I forgot to thank eyebo for helping me investigate the issue further to help better articulate the problem. And thanks for creating the videos to help illustrate.

You guys all rock.