Stadium eSport Development

[haenry]

After reading all this I have one little question left. (I really don't want to start a discussion again, I just want a little answer)
Frostbeule, you always speak of "development"/"progress" in esport. Can you explain what you mean and and give some proper examples?
(no discussion pls! )

[Hylis]

Even if I agree with the "his game", avoid insulting words

[FrostBeule]

1 )First i wan't to know what you think about these techniqual improvements since almost all of the discussion went beside these suggestions ? I like the ideas Frost and also want to know what you think about it Hylis.

He already answered it:

Your things about skidmarks or the passion of the developpers are gimmicks.

He thinks it's all just gimmicks and not important for the development of an esport. I think he is very wrong.

Also I don't think having more than one TrackMania is a bad thing. That's why I'm confused with the question "which game is the actual esport". In my opinion, both Stadium and Canyon deserve to be an "actual eSport", because they're great games.
I can see that his "splits the community" in a way, but I don't think that this is such a big deal to say "it's better to instead have 1 game".

I will quote znik who wrote a very good post over at mania-actu that I think explains it all well (and i'm feeling lazy):

"As good and uniting as this may sound, do we really afford this split-up in tournaments, prizes and organisations? When we already see the status of TrackMania in esport, I find it very hard to believe that multiple environments will be very constructive to a future sustainable esport within TrackMania."

&

"...when our most popular environment in esport gets surrounded by other environments that can't compete against Stadium in terms of player amount and activity, It doesn't feel natural that NADEO is pushing the other environments equally as Stadium. The only effect taken by this is lower prize pools, lower player spots and the chance of TrackMania getting low priority in the bigger events increases because 1. They are not sure about which environment to choose 2. The popularity is not sufficient enough for it to be presented for big audience. 3. Fewer sponsors and organizations are involved in each environment because of the split-up."

Just take ESWC as a good example: last year TMN and Canyon each had only 8 slots each, in comparison to how in the past there had been up to 24 slots for TMN. Also, the prize money was split evenly between the games which wasn't a lot if you compared to other games. Now this year when Valley is released, one can only assume that there will be even fewer slots slots and less prize money for each game. How is this a good development? It only hurt us, and it also makes the competitive quality worse.

After reading all this I have one little question left. (I really don't want to start a discussion again, I just want a little answer)
Frostbeule, you always speak of "development"/"progress" in esport. Can you explain what you mean and and give some proper examples?

Well I pretty much did in my first post in this topic. But the major thing I think is important for a good progress is that the developers, the players and the organizers all stand behind the same game and goals. Proper examples of this is by just looking how the major esports of today such as SC2, LoL, DotA etc, work. It all makes sense. TrackMania doesn't.

[Hylis]

made it simplier to read for you

do we really afford this split-up in tournaments, prizes

someone would often hide his true desire after one other item before quoting exactly what he wants. I updated it since he did not understood what I was saying. To make it simpler: maybe he thinks that esport = cashprize, he maybe wants that and try to justify why nobody else should have support from us on eSport, even if they like to play another environment

[FrostBeule]

made it simplier to read for you

do we really afford this split-up in tournaments, prizes

someone would often hide his true desire after one other item before quoting exactly what he wants. I updated it since he did not understood what I was saying. To make it simpler: maybe he thinks that esport = cashprize, he maybe wants that and try to justify why nobody else should have support from us on eSport, even if they like to play another environment

Ah, here we go again. You think I'm only involved in esports because of the money. I think this a huge insult, and not the first time you pull it either. All I can say is that you're wrong. My passion for esports is something that comes natural to me and is what has kept me playing this game for 7 years now. Unlike you who seemingly only use esports to promote your products.

[Hylis]

Ok, cool. Just many people were thinking that you were playing Zotac for it. Sorry. I said "maybe" since I was not sure. I really apologize. I know now that you don't care about the cash prize. Good to know.

[TheM]

I think that I even shouldn't be the person to say this, but here we go anyway:
Could we all please behave like normal and or have a proper discussion or none at all.

This topic turns from bad to worse and I dislike those sorts of topics.
So please have a constructive discussion (in which I'm interested in as ESL admin) ...

[FrostBeule]

Ok, cool. Just many people were thinking that you were playing Zotac for it. Sorry. I said "maybe" since I was not sure. I really apologize. I know now that you don't care about the cash prize. Good to know.

I didn't say that I don't care about money. I said and I quote "You think I'm only involved in esports because of the money."
Of course money is great, especially to motivate oneself and I see nothing wrong with that. In fact I think it's amazing that you can earn money on just playing games.
But to be involved in esports just because of the money would be madness, especially for as long as I have. I have always loved to compete, no matter what it has been. My roots in gaming started with competition. It's in my blood and simply how I enjoy games.
I've played hundreds of tournaments in TM that has had absolutely zero prize money or any prizes at all for that matter. I have done this for only 1 reason: my passion for competition. Now (I hope) you know.

So please have a constructive discussion

+1. But it seems like it's always drifted away from the arguments I come with to other pointless things such as insults.

[Hylis]

I did not said that it was the only thing, but maybe a true desire. I was wrong, I though you would not have played Zotac without prize. I feel that players that are there, too much for money (and it is not your case, ok) are more likely to be too easily negative etc. When you have a tournament of 32 players, there is often money only for 3 over 32. And I care more about the 29 behind than the 3 ahead. I am really happy that we are on the same side on this.

TheM, in fact, it is a very important discussion. FB puts skidmarks and lack of passion of the developer as arguments, I give others. I think that ESL has a much more important role than these items. I agree that it is not a nice discussion, but with the guy, it is hard to do better when the guy first post is "It just need the some proper prioritization from the developers, and the passion to see an esports racing game rise to the top" He is so negative, but I am kind of managing to have him on the same ground on cash prize questions. It is cool.

here is what I said about what I think

eSport on racing has more chance of becoming big when spectating eSport will be big. People do not play in racing club so much as in team based or 1vs1 disciplines. So, if the channels of eSport (and not of one game) becomes big and bigger, they will look for pure cool eSport to watch, and racing is part of the big sports in that area. Twitch is a big +, but it is not because there are skidmarks or not that racing will become in a much bigger scale. The best chance is the competition tab inside the game, pick up cups, much more players, maybe team matchmaking for TM or else. And as importantly as all this, positive and constructive players! And we are doing our best for all of this.

And I can add that it is also linked much more to key people, admins, moderators and organizers than other things that have been said here. And since they are here if there are cool players around, I think that having a good spirit is very important. And in that spirit, it would be really stupid to try to divide players from Maniaplanet.

[Miraculix123]

Skidmarks and Gimmiks? That sounds a bit cynical to new ideas.

Well i have played hundreds of tournaments without prize pools at all and has nothing to do with personal gain for me atleast. But for TM as an eSport it is neccesary to get prizepools do attract players or atleast it helps out alot. Theres a reason that the games with the greatest prize pools are the most popular ones in eSport?

I think that I even shouldn't be the person to say this, but here we go anyway:
Could we all please behave like normal and or have a proper discussion or none at all.

This topic turns from bad to worse and I dislike those sorts of topics.
So please have a constructive discussion (in which I'm interested in as ESL admin) ...

Yes an objective discussion is all i want, not offending jibber jabber to new ideas. Please can you Hylis comment on the techniqual aspects that Frost wrote in his first post from a developers objective perspective without cutting it off, what are your toughts about em one and one ?