Is Valley a flop like Canyon was?

[Bramble]

There are often a few of us on servers like the paf server that has decent league-style maps on it. You just need to get a few guys on there and then others will follow.

This is why I generally don't play much outside of the ET league seasons though, no where really to play the sort of maps I like other than during the leagues on training servers.

[eyebo]

@eyebo: You see, I wouldn't listen to fanbois like you, because you say Canyon was a "huge success".

As others have said, it depends how you define success. I played it nearly every day for the past two years. If that makes me a fanboy, so be it. However, I don't see it that way. I just enjoyed the game, and so I played it. I've never beat around the bush about the fact Canyon had problems, and I recognize that it wasn't everyone's cup of tea. But none of that ever stopped me from enjoying playing it.

To me Canyon was a success in that there have always been new and interesting tracks to drive, and a great community to drive knockouts, smurfs cups, and planets millions cups with. And I always loved building tracks in it.

I saw there were never many people who played Canyon since it was released until today.

Where were you looking? There's always been friendly people to play with whenever I've went online.

That having been said, I think it's important to note that some people do more than just play online. For me TrackMania is primarily an "offline" game. I love driving against other people's ghosts or just racing random tracks from MX. The past couple years, usually most of the time I go online is for some specific event. But that doesn't mean I play any less than anyone else. But you won't usually see me as a number in the multiplayer server list.

Granted, that's all changed with Valley. For now I'm playing a lot online and enjoying it. My server is full every day and always a lot of new players joining and enjoying the game. I've played over 300 tracks and really enjoy seeing the diversity people are bringing to the game. I know eventually I'll get back to my relaxed and enjoyable routine of offline play. When, I don't know. But it doesn't mean I'll stop playing it. I'll just change my mode of play.

I saw there were even less people who played the only mode which is exciting: Rounds!

What about the Planets Millions Cup? Played every third Thursday of the month. Usually around 90 players in Canyon, and it's played in rounds. This month they're adding Valley to it. I'm looking forward to seeing how many will be at the Valley side of the event. It's open to everyone.

Or what about Smurfs Cup on Saturdays? I believe it's on hold at the moment, but over the past year or more it was held every weekend most months. It's played in rounds, on known maps. And I usually saw 40+ players there every week. Open to everyone. I believe they're on break for the summer, but I'm sure it'll come back in some months.

And of course the MX Knockouts are held every Saturday as well. And they've been held in TM2 since December 2011 or so. Again, it's another event normally held in rounds, albeit just one warmup and one normal round per map, but it's still rounds.

Electronic Tournaments also hosts competitions, mostly using rounds mode. There's more coming too. I read in another topic that they have some stuff planned for Valley and some planned for Canyon and Valley together.

I haven't made up my mind at all.

In my opinion, it's not a big decision.

I'm just caucious. Bitten once, twice shy.

The only biting taking place with TM is some sort of bug that bites you and doesn't let you go.

I'm curious to hear the opinion about Valley from people who admit that Canyon was a flop, not from people like you.

Good luck finding the opinion you want to hear. I try to be objective about both games. But I enjoy playing both. Sorry I can't be more pessimistic.

[Hylis]

Great answer here, with much information.

I would like to add that servers with a lower limit can now put it to 0. Either I am wrong because it is not yet done, either you may enter in spectate and ask the admin to lower eventually the limit, in order to welcome better the noobs

[appor]

Damn, i messed up email change again and had to create again new account, hopefully this will last longer.
But... This might go offtopic, but about player amounts:
When nations was released, i guess its 2004, i didnt know anything about trackmania, my friends told me to play it and i liked it alot, i became addict and it came my favourite game. Then i learned about TMX and got really interested in tracking. Then i Bought TM United, and after that I have bought all of your games, loved them and played lots, mostly nations and shootmania.

What this story tells? It kind of tells that to get more, you have to give, and give it for free. It might sound radical, why would you do so much work just to give it away for free. The answer is simple: to get more, to get the "money back" later in another form.

If nations would had price tag to begin with, i would have never played it, and 99,9% accuracy probably never bought it or seen it, and never bought your other games after, which have been my favourite games of all time.
And i have this feel, that without nations and its success, there would be no maniaplanet today (?) And quite big percentage who plays today did come from nations side originally, or got introduced that way back then (?)

This subject is not important for me, and im easily willing to pay every game that comes out, "because im already in the culture of maniaplanet", but A Free game is a game that everybody will play, if its good enough.

A Free game is the perfect way to introduce new people to join in into the "system", and keeping that game free gains the masses around it. Its introducing the system for the new players all the time, constantly. Making demos is too short, keeping open betas is too short, they invite you but then kick you out. If you dont read these forums or are in the gaming scene, and you get kicked out, you are out from the information of new environments, new things and from the whole maniaplanet system.
When the free game is a part of bigger system (maniaplanet), the players are constantly already in the system while they play the free game. There have to be open culture to be developed around the game, where new people joins all the time. Then when they are in, they get the news about new environments and things, they start to become a part of the maniaplanet culture and makes it easier to move on in the system.
Demos gets the player into the system but then kick you out, its not as efficient way to keep the constant flow. And after it kicks you out, you have to pay for it, you might want to, or not, but the main thing is that if you dont buy it, you are out and not coming back unless other demo comes. You are out of the complete maniaplanet.
The thing is to keep players in the system.

Nations was, atleast for me, my starting point for the whole Mania thing, and it was purely just and only because it was free game which lead me to buy all your games in the future. I joined into the culture, stayed there long time because of no limits, and i got enough time to be there and bought TMU and still playing and buying.

Making a new environment that is free, might have huge effect, like stadium had. But it should be good enough too and not cheap. Now when the groups are dividing even more when new enviros and games comes, a free environment could be good tactic to stabilize it and keep constant flow of new joiners to the system.
We have only one example to compare with, and its stadium, and it was success even to this date and made the whole Trackmania popularized to begin with, so there might be some proof that it could work.

If you want to get more, you have to give more. Just some thinking i hope it makes sense

[HaagseSmurf]

- off topic -

Or what about Smurfs Cup on Saturdays? I believe it's on hold at the moment, but over the past year or more it was held every weekend most months. It's played in rounds, on known maps. And I usually saw 40+ players there every week. Open to everyone. I believe they're on break for the summer, but I'm sure it'll come back in some months.

Actually its not on hold yet, this month we still have a Smurfscup Smurfscup in July so youre welcome to join, it needs no registration and anyone from 0 to 100K lp can participate in rounds! We will have a holiday break next month After each Smurfscup you can participate in the mx-ko, again no registration needed and open for everyone !!
-on topic -

And again as said before and probably will be said again and again and again: A great community is what you make of it yourself, you can participate in all these tournaments, cups, events etc. A lot of those are free for everybody from 0 till 100k lp. Is it about racing ? Of course it is! Is it about fun, yes it is!! Actually Smurfscups were originally organised to attract more players at somehow dull saturday evenings and it works!! Its not that hard to organize things like this yourself. Promote your servers, your game and the players will come, because we just want to have fun (where did i heard that before )

Greetz,

[Hylis]

appor, it will be the subject of the demos to have people in, in the good balance of 'a lot of people' and paying players, of course.

[appor]

Yes i think demos are good, but not very reliable (compare it if stadium wouldve been a demo, or a free game, it tells it right away. The demo has limited time to collect players, but free game makes new players come constantly over the years, and even if its smaller portion who bought TMU, it wouldve been alot smaller with stadium demo)

Demos are good addition ofcourse, but if you dont like demo gameplay, and demo is over, you can delete the maniaplanet. But if you have a free game in the maniaplanet, you can keep the maniaplanet and players keep themselves in the community and in the system of the maniaplanet, and are more ready to move on next level.

I think stadium was the reason why trackmania got so big, and why stadium got so big was because it was free. But i can still understand you guys over nadeo dont want to make one free game to the mix, but its just one very good and powerfull tactic for success

[Hylis]

depends on how we do the demo. You don't seem to remember TMO & TMS ones. It will be different, but there where a lot of people coming from it.

[Gomme]

I bought Canyon and I was disappointed

i'm not disappointed , fact #1
i play TM since 2003, fact #2
fact #3 must be that i am a fanboy but i'll just call it gratitude because the game gave me an insane number of hours of joy playing it. you say you're "disappointed" alan_ch so that must be because you played a lot some older versions of TM... but you dont show much gratitude in your initial post. kind of sarcastic and unpleasant post tbh.

[appor]

No dont know much about TMO TMS, i come from stadium and after that TMU and others.
But im sure you guys have good plans and tactics. But I think its not just getting player to buy a single game, to make him try it and then decide. its about getting everybody, i mean -everybody-, together, into one place, collecting the people, and then offering them products to buy. You have to make it big as possible. Maniaplanet is perfect place for that because its progressive game with one single station. Its a community with waves towards new things and people will follow.

Like if there would be a supermarket who says "you can have sample pieces our bread for limited time", how many people would go there just because of that?
But if there would be supermarket who says "we give bread free for everybody, everyday", everybody goes there to see whats that all about.
The ones who are interested of the bread samples (demos kind of), are the ones who are really looking for that product what it is like, there has to be interest to the product before they test try it. Its limited group to reach.
But the supermarket who gives the bread for free gets all the people come into the supermarket, big masses, and once they are in, they will most probably buy some other products aswell. Its about getting everybody in there, join in, collecting masses of people, not only selling closed product with its own standing marketing. That was my point i guess

But you guys know what works the best, im just saying how i feel about it. I still think free stadium was the big thing for the whole TM back then, made it really massive, so some other free thing could be the next big hit to largen maniaplanet overall. Free game works like "in the background" all the time, making more people to join in constantly to the maniaplanet.

Edit: typos