Maniaplanet Forum

I think for this well thought game full of good tools to make content, it's pity there is no good tools to evaluate a validation replay "manually", other than the said: Load it and slow down and investigate how the wheels react... to evaluate a replay you have really really use a lot of time and effort.


If there would be tools to evaluate the replays, maybe more of us would do so also.
Maybe there could be a evaluation tool build-in the game ?

This is what I've thought.
Load the validation replay and you could get controls to seek and rewind the replay, you could freely move the camera, but it would follow always the car. If player used pad there would be freely movable controls-widget (so you can position it freely where you can see the car part you needs to see and controls easily).
It would show the essential pad-controls (8-way or analog-steering movement + accelerate + break) and there would be the equivalent for keyboard.

This would be ultimately very powerful tool as you could see very fast if someone use macros
Use control tracks as some music creation tools have "piano roll". So every control has it's own track, digital ones are just digital. Analog ones could use the graph element and has a scalar values that way.
That way you could see if analog inputs acts like digital or has non-linear values, you might suspect non-fair play.

Update:
Wow... The advanced replay editor is really all what I thought... It would be a perfect tool, it's just missing the "pianoroll" control values from the view and possibility to zoom for the time line graph

Reaby

Here is some factual data to help understand what is going on. For those that don't know what we're talking about, it may help. Normally when braking around a corner you start to drift. It has been found though, that if the brake duration is less than 0.01 seconds, then you do not drift. For example, pressing the keyboard brake key for 0.008 seconds will not cause a drift while braking around a corner at high speed.

To put this in perspective, if you are running the game at 100 fps, then 1 frame is 0.01 seconds. So, even if you press a key for only 1 frame, you still drift. If you run the game at around 120 fps then 1 frame amounts to around 0.0083 seconds, which is about what you need for this. Now, this trick is repeatable, and manageable once or twice by veteran drivers. It's not easy, it's rather risky (to do even once), but it's possible with some practice.

For Cordanis' D15 run he does this over 30 times on the first lap. It's a 10 lap track which brings his total to around 300 times on a single track. He does this 300 times, pretty much without fail, without drifting once. He managed to brake for 0.008 seconds, 300 times, without once breaking the 0.01 threshold.

What I submit, on the basis of common sense, that pressing a keyboard key for the duration 0f 0.008 seconds, 300 times in a row, without once going over the threshold of 0.01 seconds, is humanly impossible. This is only capable of being done with some type of 3rd party software. It simply does not get clearer than that d15 replay. I don't see how anyone at Nadeo could watch that d15 replay and not see what is going on. Best case scenario he is using a macro. Worst case scenario he is using a full on hack.

Furthermore, even though it's an assumption, I have no doubt that Nadeo never intended for Valley for to be driven in this manner. This isn't just some little bug or trick that has minimal impact on the game. It completely changes the way the game is being played, much in the same fashion as the driving backwards bug. It's horribly open to exploitation via the use of macro software which creates a completely unfair mechanism.

This player has been abusing this for well over a year now, showing no remorse or penchant for stopping. Rather he accuses others of cheating that have been part of this community for 7+ years, even some that have proven themselves at lan. This is his way of rationalizing his own cheating, i.e. "Others cheat because I'm not as good as them, so therefore I will cheat". It ruins the landscape of fairplay for us legitimate drivers.

I'm ont sure that the d15 replay would qualify as circumstantial evidence. Rather it leans towards direct evidence. It's basically a smoking gun that is available for everyone to see. http://tm.mania-exchange.com/replays/download/183757

Now, bear in mind, people have been convicted of murder, served 20 years, and then new evidence is produced which proves them innocent. I only say this because we don't actually have direct video of him cheating, we don't have his computer in front of us to see.

However, If I were accused of cheating by long time members of the community, I would put up a livestream and prove otherwise. I would show every program on my computer and repeat any run I've previously done that I was asked to. OBS is free and even my 5 year old computer is capable of a 480p 30fps stream. Or I would use my phone to record myself play, showing the legitimacy of the run, and upload it to youtube. Point being, that if he wants to prove he is just some freek of nature that is capable of something noone else can even remotely come close to, then it would be quite easy to do so.

I'd hazard a guess that this will never happen though. Subsequently, I think there is no choice but to delete his records and ban the account from participating.

acceleracer_01 wrote:Cheater on Stadium A12 (Top1, 19.30) and B15 (Top1, 1.03.58) by "SpiineeX".
Delete these times and ban the account, thanks!

These records still exist, please delete them.
Sad to see only very few reactions about the previously discussed issue, doesn't surprise me that much though.

acceleracer_01 wrote:Sad to see only very few reactions about the previously discussed issue, doesn't surprise me that much though.

Well, Nadeo-time is kind of like VALVe-time, we don't really know wtf is going on until it happens. It is the holiday season when most people are very busy, and it may be on the to-do list still.

I tried to layout some facts and objective analysis, which in all honesty, is rather irrefutable. I mean, noone else can even do a single corner with 5-6 brakes and no drift, let alone 10 laps and 300 of them. The d15 run is completely absurd.

In fact, it's about as believable as OJ's innocence, as legitimate as Pro Wrestling, and as farcicle as the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy having a tea party. I mean, he may as well tell us he is from planet Krypton, can fly, and shoot red heat beams out of his eyes.

So yeah, give them some time I guess, they've been pretty good about it so far (besides this instance as it was reported initially over a year ago, but nobodies perfect).

I really wish they could do something about Cordanis,but it seems like nobody really cares about it anyway :/

shadi_3205 wrote:I really wish they could do something about Cordanis,but it seems like nobody really cares about it anyway :/

The problem is not caring, but the clear evidence I think.
If nadeo had clear evidence for a cheat, they would have already banned him

haenry wrote:

shadi_3205 wrote:If nadeo had clear evidence for a cheat, they would have already banned him

So you're saying you watched the D15 replay and think it's legit? That's what you're saying yes? Did you or any of Nadeo even watch the replay? Do you even have any idea what in the heck you are looking at?

It's not possible BY A HUMAN BEING to do that brake thing 300 times in a 10 lap track. IT"S NOT POSSIBLE. Do you understand that? He didn't fail the brake trick a single time in over 10 laps, braking 5-6 TIMES PER TURN WITHOUT DRIFTING. Do you understand how far from possible that is for a human to even come remotely close to doing?

I'll say that again: Do you understand how far from possible that is for a human to even come remotely close to doing?

Look, I want to be wrong here. I don't want to be right. I don't want to sit here and call out people for cheating, it's not a pleasant thing to do. But noone likes playing with cheaters, people that just take a giant crap all over the game you enjoy playing. But this dude is using a 3rd party tool to gain and advantage by exploiting the brake trick. I will eat my words from here to the moon the day I'm proven wrong.

edk wrote:

haenry wrote:

shadi_3205 wrote:If nadeo had clear evidence for a cheat, they would have already banned him

So you're saying you watched the D15 replay and think it's legit? That's what you're saying yes? Did you or any of Nadeo even watch the replay? Do you even have any idea what in the heck you are looking at?

It's not possible BY A HUMAN BEING to do that brake thing 300 times in a 10 lap track. IT"S NOT POSSIBLE. Do you understand that? He didn't fail the brake trick a single time in over 10 laps, braking 5-6 TIMES PER TURN WITHOUT DRIFTING. Do you understand how far from possible that is for a human to even come remotely close to doing?

I haven seen it, yes. I don't meant the replay and how the player drives.
Theoretically it could be a legit run, it is not that the replay is breaking laws of the Tm physics or such. The only issue is that it is too perfect. If nadeo looks at the replay file, they will only find out that it is legit according to the TM physics.
You can watch the replay and judge the driving compared to your experience, but that is not the super objective clear evidence. It is evidence, but it's not a fact. (Although I can see too, that his run looks weird)
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Here Nadeo cannot just write a script/program, let it analyze the replayfile and then print out True of False for cheating or not cheating. If that was the case and it was possible, it would have already been done (that's what I meant. I never said that he is not cheating )

Sadly I have to announce another very sad case of cheating, something which surprised me quite a lot when I found it out.
A player called Tesla (login ogdrowned), currently member of the Neyne team has been setting quite good times on Valley tracks lately - after having downloaded a couple of Dedimania records I now know why.
Although the offline replays he submitted seem to be legit most of the times, I still cannot tolerate any kind of cheating which is quite sad for a player who seems to have a little amount of skill to say the least.
Here are a few very obvious proof replays I took from Dedimania, merged with the 2nd fastest available replay.

This one has a super obvious anti-dirt hack:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/588 ... Replay.Gbx
Same for this:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/588 ... Replay.Gbx
This as well:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/588 ... Replay.Gbx
Ridiculous:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/588 ... Replay.Gbx
Dirt hack + magic speed boost at the start:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/588 ... Replay.Gbx
And another dirt hack:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/588 ... Replay.Gbx
Here is an offline run he uploaded which doesn't seem to be cheated, but the speed he got out of the last turn is a bit too much for my taste - I've added three of my replays to compare:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/588 ... Replay.Gbx

As he did a couple of official runs as well, I'm posting this into this thread as there is no other thread for online cheaters in this forum. I will also report this issue to the Dedimania forums.
From Nadeo's side I want a deletion of his official times (no matter if they were cheated or not) and eventually his account being banned.

The replays show clearly that he is cheating. Nobody can have so much grip on dirt

On Maniaexchange we'll take care of him