Maniaplanet Forum

Korre,

I have supported more than many people can think of many efforts in the eSport scene. I also have been as neutral as possible in many many places. I even offered sometimes to support eSport where TrackMania was not, only with the target to have a better eSport global scene where we could compete to have the best game as possible.

I understand the importance of making thing quite fair. But we are at a difference of support of 1 over 1000 and FB is calling for shitstorm.

The withdrawal of Nations from Dreamhack and WCG is part of the history of Nations as well. At a certain point, I think that TrackMania² Canyon is even a chance to make TrackMania Nations even bigger. What if the community was united and capable to ask for a "Stadium" competition and a "Canyon" environment when it comes to LAN, online events or worldwide ones. Ubisoft is promoting Canyon, but also promoting TrackMania by doing so. I clearly prefer to see TrackMania² Canyon being at the Dreamhack for promotion than any other game. Nations is not driving revenues, because it is free. It is clearly positive for audience and eSport, and this is how and why we did it free, but Canyon is a paying game, and it comes with it's advantages. SC2 is not a free game, neither was SC1.

Again, I say that the more TrackMania has success, the better it is. Even a Nations 2 can not happen if Canyon does not have success. And I don't say it would or will happen, but the very far possible future comes from both the required success of TrackMania 2. It is obvious to me. And since I decide of the development, I don't even see the need to doubt about this. I did not wanted to bring that argument to the table, because I don't want anybody to think that if they help TrackMania 2 that we would do a Nations 2. I want to stay free to do what I think it is best.

thank you for your constructive post

fishmac wrote:But if the sponsors see Trackmania 2, they won't suit up Trackmania Forever. And If there is no professional Top, there is no community.

That's one of the feelings i get, when someone is talking about the trackmania nations community. Sure i envy the people which are good to play on a top level in TMN and are able to gain something though this, but i don't see it as a given that they shouldn't be open for anyhting new, which might be even better. And if you take a look at the TMU community, there isn't a professional top, but still this is one of the nicest and friendliest community you can find.

fishmac wrote: Also I dont no why Trackmania 2 is called Trackmania 2 ? With the information I know at the moment, It is more like NFS with a Editor. I'm just pissed of that TM2 isnt building a Stadium envi or an Addon, like in TMNF/TMUF. That was perfect. I dont know many people in TMUF, who are playing or building good Bay Maps for example.

Why do you compare TM2 with NFS? Then you need to compare TMN also to NFS, because there seems to be not such big differences, except the new creative possibilities and of course the new graphics (which look awesome imo). Furthermore it is possible on all tm environments to create a nice competition, but you need to be able to adapt to different driving styles. And as it seems, this is not the case for most tmn players, because they are used to much to tmn before trying tmu. Again, i really think that people which are really good at tmn are great players, because i suck there but love to watch tmn match streams (like adv vs yyt). And i don't know the fixiation on the stadium environment. What if the handling of the TM2 cars is as great or even greater than the tmn handling (assuming that you find it great). But you can't tell without trying. And if you take a look at the envimix technology where you can drive stadium cars in united environments, there are so much possibilities to increase the blocks on the same physics. You can't say that TM2 physics will so much different. You just guess after watching screens and saying "bah this does not look like stadium, it must be shit".
Think about it.

fishmac wrote: I dont know many people in TMUF, who are playing or building good Bay Maps for example.

See it this way. If i pick up your comment about the professional top of a community. Then you need a professional top for a game to convince casual players to buy a game. If TMU would be a free game, than there would be such an increase of new players to it that at least more playable maps will be available. But of course, there are many good bay maps available atm, it just deoends on your effort to learn the bay driving style and than to find maps which fit your driving style. So what i mean with this is, there are way more good maps on tmn, than on tmu, because there are ~90% more peopleplaying tmn than tmu. Sounds logical to me.

eyebo wrote:

FrostBeule wrote:i asked a poll at my facebook fanpage (http://www.facebook.com/fbcentral), and currently, 39 people says they will stay with TMNF/Stadium, and 11 will move over to TM2.

That's hardly an unbiased poll. Most of your friends/fans are undoubtedly entrenched TMNF players. If you ran the same poll on United TMX, you'd get drastically different results.

Perhaps I live in a shell, but it saddens and surprises me to see any kind of cynicism or negativity for a game or the promotion surrounding it (including competitions) that Nadeo has been working on for 2+ years. It surely deserves all the promotion it gets, and I hope it gets promoted a lot here in the US. There's tons of room for growth among the American gamers.

Indeed. If you ask peopel on your FB page, then the result will be as expected. In german there is a nice statement.
"Traue keiner Statistik die du nicht selbst gefälscht hast"
"Don't trust a statistic which you isn't faked by yourself".
So i would love to give TM2 a chance on the eSport level, because it is something fresh and new. And i would really like to see an increase on tm2 servers worldwide, because this would show how great tm2 is (and how great tmu should have been, if there wasn't nations). But at least nations gave the fame to create a chance to promote a new game to be successful AND bring money in.

FrostBeule wrote: the poll is not supposed to be for United people. it's for people that play TMNF/stadium as an esports game. we already know that for TMUF players, TM2 is the natural next step. this is nothing new.

i admit i probably shouldve made this more clear in the poll. but since i assume most of the people that are fans of me are tmnf/stadium/esports players, it doesn't really matter that much.

But this clears the point of it. Thx for the clarification.

Knutselmaaster wrote:TM² will be another game, and won't replace TMF, at least for a long time to come, as long as the players keep playing and the hosters keep hosting.
There will be about 1 new TM² environment per year, as an addition to the previous, not as a replacement.
The Esports community will find it's way to the "best for esports" all by itself, because it will have the most highly skilled players, whether that is TMNF or one of the TM² environments.

It is not more than logical to promote a new game at a big event, as that is the place where you can reach the most interested people. It would not be very effective to promote a new game at a dancing competition or a cooking seminar would it....

Exactly. If you want something to be successful, you need to be wise in choosing how you promote it. And it seems, that this will be the first time that Nadeo is doing a proper thought-out advertising with the power and exoertise of ubisoft behind them. And this feels right, because for designing such a great eSport game like TMN, but never gettinge anything back from the gamer (in case of money, not in case of fame).

@Korre_elmuro
That's the spirit to try it out at least. Not many players would do this. And maybe you'll be surprised about how good it be that you are willed to stay or to promote it in your clan and to your friends (or maybe not).
But at least advice all players to give it a try. I really hate people which say
"oh it's stupid."
"have you tried it?"
"NO way i would try that!!!"

FrostBeule wrote:what i mean with very young people with very low morals is that they haven't realized what's most important in life, and they go for the quick fix without really caring about the consequenses. the older esports gets, and the older people get, the better it will be. you gotta start with yourself though.

Wise words.

And finally. Don't post so fast all guys here. I can't even write as fast as i need to to be up to date with the discussion ^^

FrostBeule wrote:because there's nothing like Nations that can compete with it, TM2 included.

FrostBeule, how can you value something that is not even released yet? You don't want to give TM2 any chance to prove itself. Your judgement is soaked with fear and you deny the community it's capability of making right decisions. How arrogant.

Noone wants to harm the tmn elite. I think Nadeo does have the sensitivity to realize a coexistence between all titles of TM. They are one of the most community friendly team I know - whereof YOU, FB, are still benifiting from!

Hylis wrote:Korre,

I have supported more than many people can think of many efforts in the eSport scene. I also have been as neutral as possible in many many places. I even offered sometimes to support eSport where TrackMania was not, only with the target to have a better eSport global scene where we could compete to have the best game as possible.

I understand the importance of making thing quite fair. But we are at a difference of support of 1 over 1000 and FB is calling for shitstorm.

The withdrawal of Nations from Dreamhack and WCG is part of the history of Nations as well. At a certain point, I think that TrackMania² Canyon is even a chance to make TrackMania Nations even bigger. What if the community was united and capable to ask for a "Stadium" competition and a "Canyon" environment when it comes to LAN, online events or worldwide ones. Ubisoft is promoting Canyon, but also promoting TrackMania by doing so. I clearly prefer to see TrackMania² Canyon being at the Dreamhack for promotion than any other game. Nations is not driving revenues, because it is free. It is clearly positive for audience and eSport, and this is how and why we did it free, but Canyon is a paying game, and it comes with it's advantages. SC2 is not a free game, neither was SC1.

Again, I say that the more TrackMania has success, the better it is. Even a Nations 2 can not happen if Canyon does not have success. And I don't say it would or will happen, but the very far possible future comes from both the required success of TrackMania 2. It is obvious to me. And since I decide of the development, I don't even see the need to doubt about this. I did not wanted to bring that argument to the table, because I don't want anybody to think that if they help TrackMania 2 that we would do a Nations 2. I want to stay free to do what I think it is best.

thank you for your constructive post

it's not about you promoting your game, it's about HOW you are promoting it. and you are promoting it as the next esports game. the successor to Nations. perhaps you shouldve made Nations 2 instead of canyon, if you wanted to make another esports game? i am quite positive that people would pay for it. anyway, i agree with Korre, very nice post.

rocc wrote:

FrostBeule wrote:because there's nothing like Nations that can compete with it, TM2 included.

FrostBeule, how can you value something that is not even released yet? You don't want to give TM2 any chance to prove itself. Your judgement is soaked with fear and you deny the community it's capability of making right decisions. How arrogant.
Have you seen the trailers? have you read the interviews? i can't really find anything that says it will be like nations. TM2 is a successor to TMUF, not to TMNF.

Noone wants to harm the tmn elite. I think Nadeo does have the sensitivity to realize a coexistence between all titles of TM. They are one of the most community friendly team I know whereof YOU, FB, are still benifiting from!

well, im just trying to make sure that we don't get harmed. i really care about the esports community and that's why i keep playing and caring so much. whereas you might have very positive experiences from Nadeo, i can't exactly say the same, because me and Florent basically disagrees on alot of things

FrostBeule wrote: perhaps you shouldve made Nations 2 instead of canyon, if you wanted to make another esports game? i am quite positive that people would pay for it.

Nations² in what way?
I don't understand your statement here, do you mean "in a stadium instead of a canyon"?

Knutselmaaster wrote:

fishmac wrote:And If there is no professional Top, there is no community.

I disagree with that.
I never been into professional top, and neither have most of my teams players (some of them went in that direction after leaving my team) and still i have over 5 years of community fun with TMN and TMNF, with literally hundreds of different people.

I'd agree with you there. I have 250+ buddies in-game in TM, maybe a fifth of which play mostly TMNF, and I'd venture to say only about 3 to 5 of all of them have ever raced in eSport competitions. I'm excluding ET competitions since I see those as fun competitions, even though they can get quite serious. Most everyone I know in the "community" builds and races for casual fun. Certainly for me, it's just about building tracks, sharing them, learning new innovations from other players, and trying to improve my own times on tracks. That's what attracted me to TM 5 years ago. It had nothing to do with there being an eSports scene. And for most everyone I know, it's the same story.

Surely a lively eSports scene is important to the equation and promotion of the game. But it's just one small part of the puzzle.

I know that's somewhat of a counter-productive post for a topic about eSports. But I just wanted to throw in my opinion.

Knutselmaaster wrote:

FrostBeule wrote: perhaps you shouldve made Nations 2 instead of canyon, if you wanted to make another esports game? i am quite positive that people would pay for it.

Nations² in what way?
I don't understand your statement here, do you mean "in a stadium instead of a canyon"?

what? no im just saying that Florent says there can be no Nations 2 without Canyon being a success, i don't really believe that. I think Nations 2 could definitely be a success on its own, and as a paid version aswell. i don't really think TMNF is nadeo's most popular game just because it's free =) anyway, i think it's best to keep Nations free for esports.

FrostBeule wrote:

Knutselmaaster wrote:

FrostBeule wrote: perhaps you shouldve made Nations 2 instead of canyon, if you wanted to make another esports game? i am quite positive that people would pay for it.

Nations² in what way?
I don't understand your statement here, do you mean "in a stadium instead of a canyon"?

what? no im just saying that Florent says there can be no Nations 2 without Canyon being a success, i don't really believe that. I think Nations 2 could definitely be a success on its own, and as a paid version aswell. i don't really think TMNF is nadeo's most popular game just because it's free =)

What knutselmaster means is this.

tcq wrote:And i don't know the fixiation on the stadium environment. What if the handling of the TM2 cars is as great or even greater than the tmn handling (assuming that you find it great). But you can't tell without trying. And if you take a look at the envimix technology where you can drive stadium cars in united environments, there are so much possibilities to increase the blocks on the same physics. You can't say that TM2 physics will so much different. You just guess after watching screens and saying "bah this does not look like stadium, it must be shit".
Think about it.

You simply can't say that canyon can't be nations², because it's not inside a stadium. Or do you refere with nations² to a free trackmania sequel?

tcq wrote:What knutselmaster means is this.

And i don't know the fixiation on the stadium environment. What if the handling of the TM2 cars is as great or even greater than the tmn handling (assuming that you find it great). But you can't tell without trying. And if you take a look at the envimix technology where you can drive stadium cars in united environments, there are so much possibilities to increase the blocks on the same physics. You can't say that TM2 physics will so much different. You just guess after watching screens and saying "bah this does not look like stadium, it must be shit".
Think about it.

i'm not saying it's gonna be shit. im just saying it's not gonna be stadium. it's not just about the psysics that make stadium so good for esports. it's the whole package. i understand that as a TMUF player it's natural to just move on to the next env and the next psycics. but it's not like that for me. i play TMNF as a competitive game, i don't want it to change. it's like saying a football player should suddenly move over to playing handball or something. i will definitely buy TM2 as ive said before, and play it for fun, but i don't want to compete in it, because it's not gonna be Stadium. it's not football.

Why do you compare TM2 with NFS? Then you need to compare TMN also to NFS, because there seems to be not such big differences, except the new creative possibilities and of course the new graphics (which look awesome imo).


For example destroy the car ... I dont know if you destroyed your car in TMN, also the car is more looking like NFS or maybe Coast but that was TMU not TMN

Furthermore it is possible on all tm environments to create a nice competition, but you need to be able to adapt to different driving styles. And as it seems, this is not the case for most tmn players, because they are used to much to tmn before trying tmu. Again, i really think that people which are really good at tmn are great players, because i suck there but love to watch tmn match streams (like adv vs yyt). And i don't know the fixiation on the stadium environment. What if the handling of the TM2 cars is as great or even greater than the tmn handling (assuming that you find it great). But you can't tell without trying. And if you take a look at the envimix technology where you can drive stadium cars in united environments, there are so much possibilities to increase the blocks on the same physics. You can't say that TM2 physics will so much different.

I play TM since 3.5 Years and enjoy the handling and tried to drive coast. It was funny but not my world

You just guess after watching screens and saying "bah this does not look like stadium, it must be shit".
Think about it.


I dont watching screens I talk about them. Also I will buy TM 2 and play it, but with the infos I play it sometimes. Im on the way to professional in TM and the ESL forms a new Speedsection. I dont know how the physiks are or the community, but Im not worried of that, cause I think Florent do his work as well as possible.
Im just frightend, like Frostbeule, if the community will split and TM isnt supported enough to live for a longer time .