Maniaplanet Forum

Nadeo, I was on your side for b3 until a scrim I had today. Please keep b2... b3s movement is so broken and there's no real skill as ypu can now barely run "that fast" and cover ground. Please keep b2

roguesergeant wrote:Nadeo, I was on your side for b3 until a scrim I had today. Please keep b2... b3s movement is so broken and there's no real skill as ypu can now barely run "that fast" and cover ground. Please keep b2

I think you will not have the answer you want from Nadeo with this because you don't explain why you think b3 movements are broken. If they are broken, the best will be to try to fix and not to rollback. Rollback isn't the best solution in general because you don't move forward, only backward.

sadzealot wrote:

Winz wrote:We have been invited to defend our title but I think I’d rather not play as that game depresses and frustrates me. I never liked it and played it because there was really easy money to be won on it. It was/is a financial opportunity to take, I learned from my mistake on Painkiller and decided to take it this time.
It’s in my opinion impossible to like that game as a Quake player, it is inferior in EVERY way and is an insult to esports, to what FPS used to be and to what FPS should be in a competitive environment.

Something to think about when you now take away B2 which the current competitive players would like to keep.

Winz has never like ShootMania, he prefers very fast fps but ShootMania isn't this kind of game.

And for the ESWC, Nadeo want B3 but admins too (I'm one of the admins). The best is to use the b3 gameplay and fix it if it has some problem and not use b2. And if you want a "better" gameplay, the best will be to give detailled feedbacks, explain which things are good, which things are bad (not only say WallJumps are broken).

I personally feel b3s movement is a bit clunky. You can tell you are moving slower, and I've gained time on all of my attacking routes.It almost forces the player into a situation where you have no other option but to fight the defenders. I feel this kind of an issue because it removes strategic pickings etc. Mostly I find defenders are just turning to rushing now. Hope this is a better explaination.

Sadzealot,

you don't seem to know that winz made strong attack against the microjump as well, and that 10 to 0 votes have been made in favor of his post. So, you are quoting the wrong guy.

And if you tell me that we are going to lose him and that he will play Quake, it's still the wrong guy that you are naming.

As you can read, he also stop to play it because of TL10 instead of TL15. So the game must have something really wrong. So whatever is done, there is enough to complain and say that game is not good enough. And the game he played at the top was Unreal, and I am not sure it's still popular.

Anyway, if you believe him that Quake is superior in every way, why don't you leave us and play Quake? Because if you are here to make the game better by wanting us to do Quake, you are really losing your time. I could have said it since a long time, and was saying it to whoever would listen since more than a year.

Otherwise, you would have to moderate your position I think and recognize that you disagree with his comment instead of quoting him like if it was your truth.

Imo keeping the Walljump as it is and also keeping minijumps is the right move to do here in order to keep the game alive. Not only that we have been getting accustomed to it for such a long time but also because the great majority of the community (also many players who are considered "pro") are highly favouring beta 2 settings. There is a reason why ALL tournaments are using b2 settings. b3 is competitively just not viable with its half reload laser after a hit and the dull and painfully slow gameplay without minijumps. The goal is to find a balance between attracting the masses while keeping the core player base and this is NOT done by changing core gameplay elements that have been in for ages but rather by finally taking a step and advertising a tournament and hyping it before throwing out 100k$ without anyone really noticing.

tl;dr not the gameplay is the problem for this game but the really poor (sorry if that sounds offensive) advertising.

And why introducing features in beta, listening to the feedback and keeping them according to the feedback, just to drop them 4 months after release for no real reason?

jonthekiller wrote: The best is to use the b3 gameplay and fix it if it has some problem and not use b2.

Same goes for you.
Tell us why B3 is better Jon. Rofl... Give us details etc etc.
You cant just say its better.

"moving backwards is bad" is a nice arguement.
What about this one : "changing stuff that wasnt broken is bad."

Hylis if you can't see that people are naming Quake as example of a good esportgame and wanting B2 to stay because of the the common theme of higher skillcap you really should just stop marketing the game as esport friendly. The way the game has evolved over last year has more or less been 5 bad things for each good thing.
I am sure there are lots of improvement when it comes to code in B3 version and so on but that don't change the fact that it has several things that just goes against the gameplay most people like in Elite. That's the problem.
When people say they want B2 they aren't saying you should stop evolving the game but they say that B3 just isn't good enough for them. B3 will remove many valid attackroutes and force defenders to be more defensive. In what universe would anyone say that's a good thing.

I am of the opinion that the way Nadeo make global changes in SM (over all MP titles even) are really bad. Not always but sometimes. Like the introduction of multihit laser. Not a single thought was given to how it affects gameplay beyond "oh that sounds fun", so it was implemented across the board for all gamemodes as default. This is of course bad since this kind of implementation have a high chance of breaking gamemodes. Luckily this isn't such a gamebreaking thing as far as I can tell. Might be some gamemode out there that got screwed though.
Why wasn't it implemented as off by default then in nadeos gamemodes they could enable it as they see fit you could ask yourself and here is the kicker. nadeo wants a game that have same feeling across all titles and modes. That's why so many things are locked down and gamemodes can't change them.
The inflexability and attitude of this philosofy makes the game unable to cater to both casuals and hardcore esporters.

The game really has potential to be great but only if it opens up for all flavours of gamers. Simple things like just dont force things on players when you don't have to. Like multihit, just add it as a setting(true/false) for Elite and let the players decide. Open up more flexability for gamemode writers. Make reloadspeed for each weapon instead of a global one per player. Let modes set stamina above the normal attacker stamina wich are max now.
Given the opportunity and tools the community could make this game reach it's potential but as it is now it will never happen.

By refusing to understand arguments about B2/b3 differences, insisting any new thing you add is a good thing and limiting the community to actually do something about it themselves you just doom the game completely. I would even go as far as to say it is already to late and any influx you can muster up with pumping money into competitions are just a waste of money. The topteams will only play the game for money and the gameplay it self isn't compelling enough for amateurs to stay any longer time. So the increase (if any) of players will be very temporary.

There are so many good things about leaving the options up to the players instead of forcing them on global scale over the game. Just to take an example.
Why not make microjump/minimal jump a setting? Then you could have microjump for faster paced competitions in gamemodes like Joust/Elite/Combo but have a minimal jump for consistency in timedependant modes like obstacle. Limiting the effect of any macrousers getting an edge over others timewise.

Sadly we again come to the idea of a coherent game across all gamemodes and hit a brick wall. Any time anyone takes the time to say anything on these forums, the core of the arguments gets ignored and instead there is a general "oh you just don't want new things" dismissal of the poster. When it comes to walljump it's starting to become ludicrous. Any mention of wj and the reflex from Hylis is to fall back on it's random, bad code and yadda yadda yadda. One of the early arguments given where even that it was to limit movement so mappers wasn't forced to build high walls everywhere, then they introduced grapples......

What is broken for B2:
- walljump, since it is bugged
- microjump b2, since it's hardware dependant, macro-able, spamming anti bump, absurd 10 ms gap etc.
- missing new features: multihit, power walljump, quicker reload if hit
- you play a mode of Shootmania like Siege, Obstacle, Royal... and then you have a different one on Elite
- future upgrade can hardly be built on it, since it is not logical to keep the way walljump work (based on bug)
- takes time for the studio to keep it in each version and duplicate the code.

I can easily admit it your two main arguments: you find it less fun & you have to train again to be as effecient than in B2. I already said that learning again is not a good thing for a game, even if SC2 & LoL are somehow based on constant changes that requires people to always learn many things. I prefer stability and changes based on maps.

But like with the introduction of the progressive jump, I think it's for the best of the game to move forward, like Jon says. This is exactly like the chapter with strafe spamming to teleport in alpha. It was broken and we had to face many players that we unhappy for this. And I don't say I am happy you are unhappy, it's just that we are here to help the game be solid, not let broken things be an handicap for the future.

Some says the game mainly require advertising, and it's quite true when you look at the difference between France & rest of the world. But this is why we are working on invites & so on.

Munglo, when you write this

The way the game has evolved over last year has more or less been 5 bad things for each good thing.

I would like you to look at this list, for example, and tell how it is like you say. You should have 25 bad evolutions made at the same time (not counting the choices: like interger count of armors, stamina use, 1vs3 elite mode and many more I consider being before that period and also good choices)
- Deny of rockets
- Wall jumps
- Progressive jumps
- Autofocus instead of ping spamming & wallhack
- Grapple hooks

By refusing to understand arguments about B2/b3 differences

I am giving much more arguments than the other way.

And for letting the defense stronger, I really recommand to test the armor regen pads. But probably a poll will arrive saying: Why change?

Removing wj because it's "bugged" would be like removing strafe jumping in quake. Originally it was not intended but it adds depth to the game, same applies for minijump. And saying u play siege, royal etc and then elite is different is not an argument imo, because siege and royal could also be changed back without a problem.
I have to highly agree with every single point munglo said

When you say that we can change back, you are not namming obstacle. I don't know if you are doing it on purpose, but that's unlikely to raise the level of the discussion. Walljump where too bugged for obstacle and it would be absurd to roll it back, whatever you prefer play Quake and go back to it or not. By the way, strafe jump was unintented, but not a bug that was dependant on the underlying geometry. When I say "bugged", it means that there is a real flaw. Kryw is saying random moves, like obstacle players. You seem to deny it, but I know the code behind, know what is the problem, and it was raised by obstacle players (that knows more about moves than Elite ones, I think)

But in a way, by saying that we would have to rollback siege & royal, you are admitting that the argument in itself. Since you are not talking of obstacle, one of the most popular mode of shootmania, you seem to agree with my argument. Even if you prefer to not really answer to them.

Anyway, not sure it is based on argument at all.