[POLL] Microjumps are good for the game. Dont remove B2

[pksens]

One of the sticking points for me in B3 is simply the quick reload after shooting. There is not much depth to the tactics these days in defence, but at least a couple of layers can attribute to defensive rotations which allow you to defend in more advanced spots. The further you are from the pole, the more rotations you will have to make and a critical component allowing you to do so is the reload time for the rail gun. A miss, or a teammate unfortunately dying, gives you the few seconds required to get from block A to block B which normally would be an open shot.

I can see the benefit for you to have the laser be 'overcharged' during the last 15 seconds of pole capture time, as usually at this moment the defence is pretty stacked and to win 1v3 requires a miracle pole capture at best, although the same might not be said of 1v2.

Also, regarding WJ, as I've said before, just implement 'wall sliding' and you will have the benefits of your B3 walljumping and an extra layer of potential for movement that obstacle and elite players would both enjoy.

[MuNgLo]

Nadeo, I was on your side for b3 until a scrim I had today. Please keep b2... b3s movement is so broken and there's no real skill as ypu can now barely run "that fast" and cover ground. Please keep b2

I think you will not have the answer you want from Nadeo with this because you don't explain why you think b3 movements are broken. If they are broken, the best will be to try to fix and not to rollback. Rollback isn't the best solution in general because you don't move forward, only backward.

We have been invited to defend our title but I think I’d rather not play as that game depresses and frustrates me. I never liked it and played it because there was really easy money to be won on it. It was/is a financial opportunity to take, I learned from my mistake on Painkiller and decided to take it this time.
It’s in my opinion impossible to like that game as a Quake player, it is inferior in EVERY way and is an insult to esports, to what FPS used to be and to what FPS should be in a competitive environment.

Something to think about when you now take away B2 which the current competitive players would like to keep.

Winz has never like ShootMania, he prefers very fast fps but ShootMania isn't this kind of game.

And for the ESWC, Nadeo want B3 but admins too (I'm one of the admins). The best is to use the b3 gameplay and fix it if it has some problem and not use b2. And if you want a "better" gameplay, the best will be to give detailled feedbacks, explain which things are good, which things are bad (not only say WallJumps are broken).

Nadeo has already been told everything they need to hear about B2 vs B3. They just refuse to listen.
Ok so Winz never liked ShootMania. He's not alone when it comes to topplayers from other games. Sure many might not have said it but just look now, when there's no big tourney with money on the table. See them anywhere?

What is broken for B2:
- walljump, since it is bugged
- microjump b2, since it's hardware dependant, macro-able, spamming anti bump, absurd 10 ms gap etc.
- missing new features: multihit, power walljump, quicker reload if hit
- you play a mode of Shootmania like Siege, Obstacle, Royal... and then you have a different one on Elite
- future upgrade can hardly be built on it, since it is not logical to keep the way walljump work (based on bug)
- takes time for the studio to keep it in each version and duplicate the code.

I can easily admit it your two main arguments: you find it less fun & you have to train again to be as effecient than in B2. I already said that learning again is not a good thing for a game, even if SC2 & LoL are somehow based on constant changes that requires people to always learn many things. I prefer stability and changes based on maps.

But like with the introduction of the progressive jump, I think it's for the best of the game to move forward, like Jon says. This is exactly like the chapter with strafe spamming to teleport in alpha. It was broken and we had to face many players that we unhappy for this. And I don't say I am happy you are unhappy, it's just that we are here to help the game be solid, not let broken things be an handicap for the future.

Some says the game mainly require advertising, and it's quite true when you look at the difference between France & rest of the world. But this is why we are working on invites & so on.

Munglo, when you write this

The way the game has evolved over last year has more or less been 5 bad things for each good thing.

I would like you to look at this list, for example, and tell how it is like you say. You should have 25 bad evolutions made at the same time (not counting the choices: like interger count of armors, stamina use, 1vs3 elite mode and many more I consider being before that period and also good choices)
- Deny of rockets
- Wall jumps
- Progressive jumps
- Autofocus instead of ping spamming & wallhack
- Grapple hooks

By refusing to understand arguments about B2/b3 differences

I am giving much more arguments than the other way.

And for letting the defense stronger, I really recommand to test the armor regen pads. But probably a poll will arrive saying: Why change?

"you find it less fun & you have to train again to be as effecient than in B2."
Again you are missing the point. There is nothing new to "train" in B3. It's simpler less skilled and less challanging. That's why it isn't as much fun.

"I am giving much more arguments than the other way."
You are giving arguments but not a single one that actually takes gameplay into account. You are in fact making exactly the post I would expect. Completly missing the point of how B3 gameplay isn't as good as B2. Sure there might be many things lacking or "broken" but the gameplay is more skillbased and fun. it just can't be said any simpler but as expected you again refuse to understand and dive head first into the "old is broken" and "we must evolve" arguments which really nobody has any problems with.
The problem is that we expected a skillbased esportoriented game and that is not the direction you are evolving the game.

So i take it you want me to list 25 bad things added since you listed 5.
1. Mousepointer release forced on death.
2. Matchmaking without confirmation on connect
3. laser on defence (oh that was a big one :/ )
4. spottingsystem changed and now we don't actually can tell if we have spotted enemy for our temmates or not. seems to be very unrelyable infact.
5. changes made makes game crash almost every single time you close it for many players.
6. echelon. what a complete waste of development time. :/
7. adding soundsettings under displaysettings ingame but not under launchers soundsettings.
8. adding that qucikplay thing on Elite station in MP. so now it takes even more keyclicks to get into game.
9. making serverbrowser by country by default.
10. adding ambient sound to maniaplanet. If we wanted it to make a bunch of noice we would use music. Oh but now it meshes with music and sounds awful.
11. broke xmlrpc callvote function on server and didn't fix it for about 5/6 months.
12. that huge dropdown score on top in elite. Only useful for streamers I guess but forced even on active players as soon as they look at tab.
13. weapon icons to indicate attack order in Elite. Confusing to say the least.
14. turnstart lag. Been there for what feels like forever but it hasn't.
15. forcing tags on teammates to be always visable. not giving the player an option. even when clearly not needed it's still there.(unobstructed teammate in center of screen)
16. held back Elitescript bugfixes due to Stadium release (technically not adding but refusing to add fixes is just as bad)
17. adding laserreloadgain on kill.
18. removing a clear number for attacker AP (now it takes more focus to check and distracts from gameconcentration. Not a big deal though since I always hit )

I'm gonna stop there since I can't think of anymore right now. I've tried to limit myself to the things added to game since I picked it up.

[andrewcandoall]

It does have some redeemable attributes in my opinion that should be retained in whatever they go with.

• Super Wall Jump off of Red Blocks
• Fast Reload after killing target is more rewarding of good aim
• Ability to kill more than one target

There are some things that aren't a big deal

• New micro jump on the latest version is very playable. Many North American teams have begun playing with it and no one has complained. You don't leave the ground when done properly (So you aren't an easy target whenever you want to use stamina).

The main issue from what I can see is:

• Wall Jumps

Aside from that the settings are just fine

[dreammyw0w]

pls dont go off-topic. Thats not the spirit

Somebody just PM'ed me on steam. Its funny how the conversation starts :


Btw, this topic isnt about keeping B2 & never change it. Why cant we let the game evolve using B2?
( with microjumps , with multilaser , with ... )


PS : Obstacle is obstacle. Elite is Elite. I like sugar in my coffee, doesnt mean i like sugar in my cola. I prefere cola zero.

[Cerovan]

pls dont go off-topic. Thats not the spirit

Why telling something positive about B3 in a B2 vs B3 topic is off-topic?

PS : Obstacle is obstacle. Elite is Elite. I like sugar in my coffee, doesnt mean i like sugar in my cola. I prefere cola zero.

You're wrong here, it's not logical to have two different character behaviours in the same game (i mean in a Maniaplanet game). That's why B2 need to be removed.

I think it's time to move forward, even you think that those changes will lower the skill gap, at the end it'll still be the best players who'll win the matches against "random" players because the aim will be the ultimate part to master in the game. You can master all the moves but if you aren't able to aim correctly your opponents, you'll still loose the match, it's the combination of the two who makes you a good player and not only one of them.

[Hylis]

+1 Cerovan


Munglo,

Your list is nothing on scale to the size of things we made. I am talking about walljumps, progressive jumps, rocket denies etc. while you talk about interface confirmation, wrong assumptions (no additionnal click because of the clickplay since you already had to click the station to enter) and things we have done/undone for test purpose (how stupid would you be to suggest that we never test something while you are even suggesting to rollback at the moment)

If I where to list something at your scale of details, I would easily put hundreds of positive things that have been made, making you need to put thousands just to continu to try to say that you were right with your sentence. For me, it looks like you have difficulty to admit that you exagerated, and also express how much I can thrust the ability to reach understanding in that discussion.

You talk about skill; but win against the top teams before saying that there is a low skillceiling. It is as hard to play latest gameplay than B2, it is just that B2 widen the gap between you and people that would not have practiced as much. Artificially widening the gap is not at all a sportive attitude. It is just going the opposite of football in order to go toward a hardcore, geek, limited number of participants activity. It is going more toward what Quake has become, without any possibility to really welcome new players to enjoy. But since you never talk about them, including the way you threat the Echelon approach, I think we will ever have a difference in that. Football is big because it is noob friendly as well, unlike you arguments seem to desire the game to be.

[dreammyw0w]

+1

dreammyw0w

Ty that you agree with me Hylis.
And Hylis, I did not make the list It was 'Munglo'.

pls dont go off-topic. Thats not the spirit

Why telling something positive about B3 in a B2 vs B3 topic is off-topic?

This was directed to Munglo. Mentioning every single change since the game launched is, for me, off-topic.
The list of 20items has nothing to do with this thread and is thuss off-topic.

[Hylis]

good news that it is him, and not you

I edited my post

[sadzealot]

As you can read, he also stop to play it because of TL10 instead of TL15. So the game must have something really wrong. So whatever is done, there is enough to complain and say that game is not good enough. And the game he played at the top was Unreal, and I am not sure it's still popular.

Anyway, if you believe him that Quake is superior in every way, why don't you leave us and play Quake? Because if you are here to make the game better by wanting us to do Quake, you are really losing your time. I could have said it since a long time, and was saying it to whoever would listen since more than a year.

Otherwise, you would have to moderate your position I think and recognize that you disagree with his comment instead of quoting him like if it was your truth.

[Edited by Cerovan: No.] I listed an interview with a top player withing FPS Esport that says he's onlyh in shootmania for the money. And he's not the only one. Did you really not understand that this was the point I was making? Then you are stupid and shouldn't be in charge for Shootmania. (And yes, You'll probably think I'm insulting you now, and I am, because you deserve to be insulted when you act so fucking arrogant as you do in this thread against the entire community of the game. Most people have been here since last year and have helped you make this game what it is by giving feedback and testing it for you for almost a year before release)

And you insinuating ([Edited by Cerovan]) that I want you to make quake? I never said such a thing.

Again, all I did was to show you that a top player (And he's not the only one) was in Shootmania simply because it was easy money. When there's no big money on the line, they're not around. That should speak something about the gameplay of Shootmania and how they view it, shouldn't it? And now you're even [Edited by Cerovan] with the current competitive players by refusing to listen to them.

All your answers in this post is nothing but French arrogance boiled down to "I am the developer, look at how many great things we have done with this game" and then you completely ignore the poinst being made against B3 and the things you've done there.

[Edited by Cerovan: No again.]

ITS LESS SKILLED!

ITS NOTHING NEW TO LEARN IN B3!

Once you start listening to your own [Edited by Cerovan] community you might actually get this game to survive.

You force B3 on us in it's current state you're killing the current competitive community.

Fuck you and your arrogance in this thread!

(yes, I am pissed off by reading your answers in this thread and you can [Edited by Cerovan] for all I care. With all the time and dedication put into this game only to have you do a 180 and make a casualfriendly shooter by making it less skilled.... Im at a loss of words)

PS! and anyone saying that the fast reload after kill in B3 is a good thing is [Edited by Cerovan]. Ever thought about what this will do to defensive rotations in Elite?

No? Then maybe you should do so before this game becomes even more of a polehugging game on defense in Elite than what it already is.

Btw, that's something Nadeo hasn't ever talked about. The current state of gameplay in Elite. Which over time has grown to be more and more defensive because of how Elite is made in the first place.

[Edited by Cerovan: One more post like this and you're off for the weekend]

[MuNgLo]

+1 Cerovan


Munglo,

Your list is nothing on scale to the size of things we made. I am talking about walljumps, progressive jumps, rocket denies etc. while you talk about interface confirmation, wrong assumptions (no additionnal click because of the clickplay since you already had to click the station to enter) and things we have done/undone for test purpose (how stupid would you be to suggest that we never test something while you are even suggesting to rollback at the moment)

If I where to list something at your scale of details, I would easily put hundreds of positive things that have been made, making you need to put thousands just to continu to try to say that you were right with your sentence. For me, it looks like you have difficulty to admit that you exagerated, and also express how much I can thrust the ability to reach understanding in that discussion.

You talk about skill; but win against the top teams before saying that there is a low skillceiling. It is as hard to play latest gameplay than B2, it is just that B2 widen the gap between you and people that would not have practiced as much. Artificially widening the gap is not at all a sportive attitude. It is just going the opposite of football in order to go toward a hardcore, geek, limited number of participants activity. It is going more toward what Quake has become, without any possibility to really welcome new players to enjoy. But since you never talk about them, including the way you threat the Echelon approach, I think we will ever have a difference in that. Football is big because it is noob friendly as well, unlike you arguments seem to desire the game to be.

Come on I said nothing about scale or so when I said there where lots of bad things added. Of course I exaggerated. That really shouldn't have to be explained. :/ After all you can easily just count each code commit as a change and well...
And for saying you removed stuff like laser on defence in Elite is not negating the fact that you did add it.
And you are wrong on stations you used to just doubleclick and be done. now you have to hit a much smaller area after you highlighted the station. Personally I don't want a rollback. I don't want 2 modes. Never wanted. Was a bad idea from the start. Hey another point for the list. But you need to stop focusing so much on not going back that you don't see what you are leaving behind. B2 wj have so much more use then B3. Sure they take much more skill and practice but the point is that B3 is just not usefull enough, fun enough, hard enough.
You talk about "Artificially widening the gap..." as a bad thing but are really going out of your way to artificially limit it instead without letting players know exactly what's going on. Catering to only letting noobs have a better experience as you seem to want is incompatible with esport with high skillceiling.
"...without any possibility to really welcome new players to enjoy."
They have a lot of gamemodes to explore and play in. Just as in the average esport game you cant expect beginners to be as good as longtime topplayers. Any new to fps player that think they should be able to cut it in a gamemode even called Elite are delusional. If you try to get those kind of players to stay for Elite you will have to nerf everything and make it so random based you would lose everybody else.

Instead of actually talking the points to hart and try to understand how for example B2 wj really enhances the gameplay you make an attack on my person and suggest I don't know what skill is. /facepalm

You are at least consistent in being inconsistent with bringing in fotball to the discussion. Since when have a average moe been able to play in Premier League? The whole idea from the start with Elite was to make a good top esport game if I'm not mistaken. Even the name suggest it to be the Elite gamemode for the best players to compete in. You are trying to devolve it into something more comparable to workplace fotboll leagues.
Its one thing to let the average moe have his frinds team where he can run around scream and then get a couple of beers afterwards. But as it is now you are effectively cutting off the Premier League.
By compressing skill ladder you end up with a game where a noob can feel special and when everybody feels special nobody is.

Your english seems to fail you in this sentence.
"It is as hard to play latest gameplay than B2, it is just that B2 widen the gap between you and people that would not have practiced as much."
Sounds to me you actually admit B2 takes more practice to be good at. I assume you mean that B3 players haven't practiced B2 as much. That's the point. Coming from B2 to B3 you have nothing really important new to learn. Just have to adjust to getting laserreload on hit.

About Echelon as it relates to Elite. Completely useless. Echelon is just a obstructive in your face way to show LP progression which in Elite means nothing at all.


Sry btw Dreammy but i figure this thread is more or less about Elite's future so gotta at least try to get the points across. The whole poll for keeping B2 is already a lost cause. That will never happen. But what we must try to get Hylis and Nadeo to understand is that by nerfing skill in the game the whole challenge and fun goes out the window.
But it seems to be pointless. All Hylis does is to ignore the actual points made and fall back on "must move forward" and "it is broken" and so on. When that fails he goes after the actual poster. Already done so a couple of times in this thread.
It's just so pointless. For those of us that have played so many hours of the game on all kind of skilllevels to so easily see what makes B3 a lesser gamemode and not be able to get a single individual from the devs to understand it. It sure as hell isn't for lack of trying.