Maniaplanet Forum

Cerovan wrote:Please remember that the 150kb limit isn't necessarily definitive, like others Maniaplanet tools, may be changed later.

Also we have always stated that we wish the main title (of each environment) to be easily recognizable at the first sight, that's also why the customization options for the "vanilla" maps are limited.

Each environment has a theme (Canyon for canyon, Valley for Valley, etc.), it can be strange for a newcomer, to go on a online server, and to arrive on a scifi-themed map instead the Canyon-themed he has bought (or try). Maybe he'll like, maybe not, if yes maybe he would want to create a map like this, load the editor and doesn't find any of the blocks (or the most important ones) he saw earlier in his run. That's an odd experience that may have a newcomer.

While we want to give more customization to the creators, there is also many more factors to take into account: Internet requirements, PC requirements, First User Experience, brand policy, benefits for the creator, benefits for the player, etc.

The job is to find the right balance between all the factors (and it's not easy ^^)

Spoken like a boss!

Fix' theory and Cerovan explanation makes sense. I mostly agree with them.
To keep it short, you both are arguing that it has too many risks/disadvantages and it would lead to a bad playing experience due to the bad consequences by allowing a higher embedding items limit. (Fix post is actually about becoming creative by creating alternative ways due to the limits, but I believe that what I mentioned above - afraid of the various risks - is the main reason here)

However, I personally think that the players shall decide on their own whether they want to accept the risks or not.

My suggestion:
Add a warning-icon ''E!O'' on the belonging line from the server of the server list. If you want to enter the server with the warning-icon, a warning-window appears which clarifies the risks of playing on a server with an increased limit of embedded objects. There should be a buttom like ''Ok'' or ''No''. I forgot to add them in my modest image

Please excuse my bad photoshop skills ^.^
The warning-window
The warning icon (E!O) and the warning-window in the serverlist
There could be added/edited more, just a brief example of how it could be done.

As it has been proven here, a considerable amount of players want a higher limit (or even no limit) and they would probably accept the risks (Lags, takes a while to download the data, doesn't fit to the environment etc.). Those guys who don't want that, simply don't join.

Nevertheless, I can totally understand that's not easy to find the 'golden balance' as a developer. Hopefully this is a helpful suggestion.

Edit:
I've done a quick exchange with novationx and he told me that the text is too long and could be shorten a bit because gamers don't read that much. I agree but for the sake of not missing anything I've done that ^.^
Basically, the main idea that a warning (in any form) appears when you want to join a server with embedded objects and the players can decide on their own.

Regards,
Soprah

Soprah wrote:To keep it short, you both are arguing that it has too many risks/disadvantages and it would lead to a bad playing experience due to the bad consequences by allowing a higher embedding items limit.

This sounds like pure irony for me.
The logical chain behind this is: No Limits for custom objects -> Custom objects are more attractive -> more custom objects usage -> very diverse maps -> stupid players don't know what's canyon and what's valley any more because the identification by physics and car is too difficult -> bad critics from stupid players
Can you find the arrow at which the chain of logic breaks? (hint: it's red)

For Newcomes it is not confusing to see very diverse maps. Why should it? Newcomers will automatically find out quite fast that objects allow for a lot more possibilities than just the original blocks and will quickly start to use those. They will be more confused about a size limit of 150kb, when they notice it later on, than they will be about custom objects right from the beginning.

It's similar to little kids and smartphones. They seem to know instantly how everything works. There is no need to show them an old Nokia to explain what a mobile phone is

It's easy to make something complicated but it is much more difficult to design a simple system. It was easier to understand when items were only allowed in title packs.

Don't forget there's no limit for items in... Title pack which is the best system for objects. Embedded objects are more a ads for items/title packs because there will be always a limit. Not in tltle packs

Cerovan wrote:..

If he arrives on a sci-fi map, it's due to an environment mod (which is also allowed in main titles, better disallow mods!). Not due to objects, they're restricted to title textures anyway (which is understandable, textures DO eat space).
New mappers aren't going to be like "WOW THIS BLOCK IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND GAME SUCKS"; instead they're typically like "HOW DID HE CREATE THAT?" and finds out there's a whole collection of embedable objects to make maps even more awesome. Yay!

Balance between all factors is important, but 150 kb is about nothing nowadays, especially for a game requiring a connection for downloading and updating the game, downloading maps in first place etc...

meuh21 wrote:It's easy to make something complicated but it is much more difficult to design a simple system. It was easier to understand when items were only allowed in title packs.

Don't forget there's no limit for items in... Title pack which is the best system for objects. Embedded objects are more a ads for items/title packs because there will be always a limit. Not in tltle packs

It's easier for the player to play on a map with embedded objects then a titlepack. Why? Because maps with embedded objects just work. Titlepacks require a lot of interaction of the user, which is a pain. It scares players away, they're not accessible.

For the builder they're arguably equal, but as builder/creator I'd prefer embeddable objects since then all players do not need a special titlepack, costing 5000/3 planets per slot and annoying user interaction. We can then also combine objects from multiple object sets. If it requires a titlepack, your map is likely less played then the same map, using embedded objects.

And seeing your content being used is an important motivator. Being able to use objects directly into a map without a whole titlepack around it for smaller object sets simply ensures you aren't doing it for a handful of people who bothered to install it. Titlepacks are good if you plan on large scale projects (the RPG titlepack is a good example), although they're still not accessible, so they generally lack players.
Which sucks for the content creators.

OFF TOPIC:
Im trying to find another game where they actually limit you to play other titles. I cant find any.
ALL ( no exceptions, ALL ) custom titles have 0-10 players... and somehow we need to give-away our planets to play them?

Just last week I wanted to try a new title, but I couldnt.
Also, I already gave away my planets to servers ( cuz I rly thought thats one of the only ways to spend planets besides manialinks which sell horns/avatars for 10planets )... Nowhere you will read "Warning: save ur planets for titles."
Its when you wanna try a title, that you find out about it. Some people, like me, are then forced to find planets somewhere... others can play it.

This 5K-payment reaaaaaly should be removed, cuz its an extra hurdle we have to take in order to play a title. And trust me, title-pack creators reaaaaaaaaaly want us to play their titles. It almost feels like they are coding for nothing :/
Suggestion: Just let us pay 1k per station OR 750k per station. ( or preferably free )

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ON TOPIC:
Its funny... I think I have changed my mind 3x already with this 150kb limit. Im reading plenty of good arguments.
What would be the desired limit? Maybe we should wrap up this thread and find an acceptable limit?

"No Limit" sounds fun, but im not interested in downloading a GB just because of a troll map.
What about 300kb or 500kb? Ive tried to get 150kb on my own map and its already a lot. So doubling it to 300kb or 500kb would be super!

Also @NADEO: Its not because you would make it 500kb, that ALL maps with embedded items would suddenly use up that 500kb. I think it would be véry rare to play on a map using 500kb of items.

I totally agree with you, TGYoshi, well said!

As a content creator it is a pain to get players to actually play your title. It's super annoying and frustrating


novationx, even 500Kb is better, but if you want to have quality objects they can easily reach 2MB in size. It's not much to download, but adds a lot of possibilities and fun to the game.
Compared to mods or music, which take 150MB sometimes 2MB is still nothing.
Imagine you had roughly 150€ in your wallet. What would you count to check if you had enough money to go shopping? Probably all bills (which sum up to 150€) and then? Would you continue with all the coins to see if you actually have 152€ or 151€ or maybe even 154€?
I guess not, as you already know that 150 is enough and the small coins won't make a difference, when you go shopping

Question:
Once u have downloaded a embedded item. Do you need to redownload that same item again, later?

That depends on how Nadeo will implement it for biggers files.
Usually you should not need to download the object again, if you already have it

haenry wrote:That depends on how Nadeo will implement it for biggers files.
Usually you should not need to download the object again, if you already have it

okay, but we dont store maps locally... AND the item is embedded IN the map... so?