Endless Discussion Topic, e.g. positive/negative

[Ozon]

Actual music fitting to the atmosphere in this thread.

[tcq]

Maybe this proposal for a European framework: National statue for the promotion of tolerance, could help this thread? I mean, we could simply make all of the non believers into belivers by brain washing them
Just kidding, I would see it the following way. Negativity is just another way of life. You can be an optimist or a pessimist. Either ways are totally legit. Saying the glass is half full or the glass is half empty does not change the fact that the glass is neither empty or full. Way of the optimist: "The world is beautiful and the day is so nice even though it's raining". Way of the pessimist: "What a shitty day, the rain is so bad. It could still be worse though." It's just a way of description and way of life.
The problem I see is, people trying to force their way of thinking/ their status of mind on the minority/opposition and this is why this topic is kinda sensitive to discuss. I can fully understand that sadzealot get's aggressive by the "not visible progress of the game" and I can also relate to Soprah.
But the best section in this post was written by Soprah.

Furthermore - if your intention is to clarify the current issues of Maniaplanet, Shootmania or whatever - being constructive and having good manners might eventually fullfill your dream that any of those suggestions you wrote in your post, will be implemented or considered in the developing process. But, if you do not change anything regarding your tone, Nadeo and other guys will only brand you as a ''negative guy''. If people might think (that you are a negative guy) they will not focus on your probably valid aspects, they will not agree, they will rather disagree by thinking in the back of their head ''This is a negative guy, this can't be right''. Obviously, this may sound absolutely strange, weird or whatever but this is my assumption.

This assumption is what really "grinds my gears". Just because the way someone says things does not please people, it doesn't nullify the fact that there can be truth in this words spoken. By ignoring this, it's like you are biting the bullet. Still, for a constructive discussion you need to try to please the people you are talking to, but the people listening should also be able to comprehend the frustration in their dialogue partners because they are simply not listening to valid critics. I say, each critic is justified and it would be better to listen to it instead of playing deaf and missing the jackpot.

[haenry]

I agree with you, tcq!
Yes, reading a nice critique is easier than reading a "negative" critique.
However, ignoring the negative criticism lets you miss the content, which might have been true and important.

So the best behaviour for players would be to write your criticism in a nice way, but still bringing along all your points.
And for Nadeo the best behaviour would be to listen to everyone equally to not miss out on valid points for improvement, no matter how harsh or negative a critique sounds.

[Hylis]

haenry, you wrote: "However, ignoring the negative criticism lets you miss the content"
It's quite surprising you write this! I will repeat it once more: I read everything, from negative to positive. I am here to know what is important for the game, and would you look at the wishes we made right, the list is big. A critic does not have to be said in a negative way.

But for me, the topic here is about the negative effect of being negative toward the other members of the community. It's like in a party, if you have negativeness, it's less interesting to stay. Look at the first sentence of this thread and see if it's something normal: "Can your tongue be any further up Nadeos nosunshine-place? " Now imagine I would write like that how much negative it would be perceived. You can be super critic and positive at the same time. Being negative is just negative.

But like I said, it's interesting to see how many people here accept the bad behavior there is in the first post when still having the debate go ahead. And I think that's even more sad for the ones that are negative. And this is another reason why I still say that being negative is negative. I once tried to save a car from being flooded by the tide. People around did not help and were even telling me to leave it alone, that it was deserved (probably wanting a show) If 10 people would do some effort, it would be easier than if it was only one, and saving something from being flooded is also cool imo.

I am mainly saying that the party would be better with less negativity around. It's for the people at the party that I am telling this, not for me. Do you really think I would care about the judgement of people for which I am more sad than impressed? I would rather try to convince other people to help them, the same way than the car.

[haenry]

I read everything, from negative to positive.

Yeah, I know that. It's really good that you're reading everything!
I want to note that this is also a general discussion, not only for you Hylis . So I thought it is good to give advice for everyone

I am mainly saying that the party would be better with less negativity around. It's for the people at the party that I am telling this, not for me.

Yes, it is definitely better for the community to be nice. That's the reason I wrote:

So the best behaviour for players would be to write your criticism in a nice way, but still bringing along all your points.

Do you really think I would care about the judgement of people for which I am more sad than impressed? I would rather try to convince other people to help them, the same way than the car.

haha, no way! That's a great attitude. Always preading the good vibe!

[Hylis]

Thanks for clarifying. And I would like to add that it's also in the way to think things, in addition to write them. There are so many conflict that comes from thinking negative first instead of trying to understand.

For example: someone can tell us that we should work on matchmaking in a nice way instead of falling damage, but he should also keep in the head two things:
1. we are already working on it (loss of points, faster ranking, improve top level functions etc.) but that it could take more time to make it even better
2. it's not the same guy and timing to do this: it's the one that knows how to change the gameplay that took 1/2 a day to add the falling damage, in order to test: and it was not in Elite at an update, but on the other mode in order to collect feedbacks. And we put it on Elite after that, having not enough feedback in my opinion
So, we took care, time and effort to try new things, that sometimes are good, sometimes not, but there is a way to see it as positive efforts instead of negative ones, in addition to write things in a nice way. I don't ask for people to think we are great, but just to try to understand more and have a well balanced approach: we do mistakes, we do good things and negative posts are often too much in a way in a thinking, with wrong things.

I often go see the wishlist of people that are angry, and regularly see that we did already some of their major points. With time, I think it's clear that they are sometimes thinking negative too much, and that it even removes the ability to have good discussions that can even help more the game. For example: one guy attacked us publicly one time after saying that I was not listening because I did not answered a skype message of him that appeared while someone else was using my laptop. He made a negative judgement without knowing the facts. In his message on skype, he was apologizing for a bad public behavior as well. This is negative to apologize of a bad public behavior in private, while you did things in public. These are samples of negativeness that makes them probably less happy, and the players around, for nothing. And this is why I like to learn out of it, in order for it not to stay for nothing, and even maybe help them a little on the way.

[haenry]

There are so many conflict that comes from thinking negative first instead of trying to understand.

Yes, that's a good observation and I agree!
Many people are really good at detecting the bad things. Most people even forgot how to see the "good". Our human brain gets better and better in what it is doing repeatedly. The training effect of our brain is really important to survive. But when you always bleat (like some people in Germany tend to do) and try to find all "bad" aspects of things/moments, while neglecting the beautiful and "good" moments/things, your brain is trained to see the negative things first and can actually see them a lot better. If you do that for years, your brain will lose the ability to detect good things or will get weaker at least.
I once saw a TED talk about this problem and a "training" plan to write down 3 positive things you experienced everyday. I did that and had real struggle during the first week. After some time though, "good" things became more obvious!
Maybe I can find the link somewhere...

Yes Hylis, you're right by saiying that a lot of people see the bad things first (probably due to the problem above) and then judge too quickly, and thus a lot of conflicts appear.


Not related to this discussion (off topic in the off topic ):

I often go see the wishlist of people that are angry, and regularly see that we did already some of their major points.

Obviously it is stupid to wish things that are already there. But on the other hand I have to say that the maniaplanet system has become very complex over the years, which is why it's easier to miss out on things. I haven't seen a game with such a complex gaming platform in my entire life. So I can understand it a bit that sometimes players complain about things that have already changed.
However, it's always better for the players to inform oneself before starting to complain. Players are humans and those like to judge quickly

[TMarc]

@haenry, regarding your example with positive things, and also with the negative Germans (I can confirm your opinion), it is also a matter of perspective or expectations.
Many people are so much used a higher living standard that ridiculuously small things starts to annoy them. And even if they have nothing to really complain about, they make those minor issues look like big problems.
They simply lost the focus on what is really important and what is not in life, or they think they need to get attention from others.
I call this often "luxury problems".
And isn't it just a silly "luxury problem" to have arguments about a game? I'm not telling that there is nothing to complain about, I'm also critical. But the way how the complaints sometimes arrive here is out of bounds.
Certainly it's not nice if someone has a issue and can't play at all, or has constant crashes. They definitely need help or best advice. But all the rest, is this really a drama? I don't think so.

We have to consider the tone and the words used for the messages, and also the individual issue.
Some people always tend to exaggerate, others are much too much relaxed or indifferent.

About the "list of positive things", if you see only negative things at first, or lets just say you don't see anything especially positive neither negative, after a while, you will consider much less positive things also being positive, just to have something on the list.
Does it really make you happier? Perhaps not, perhaps it gives you only a better feeling at first.
Of course, to think more about positive things lets you forget about the small negative things.
Only after while things will look more positive than negative, if nothing really bad happens.
This is a process that takes longer time.

You still want to start with the list?
Then perhaps this helps... there were already a few song examples before in this thread, let's have some more positive:

The now classic Number 1 hit: Pharell Williams Happy
Not forgetting its predecessor: Daft Punk Get Lucky
And from my all time "feel good" music band Down To The Bone: Happiness Is A Healer.

[plopp]

Yes Hylis, you're right by saiying that a lot of people see the bad things first (probably due to the problem above) and then judge too quickly, and thus a lot of conflicts appear.

If you walk in to your office at work and see that a guy is taking a big dump on your desk, will you complement him on his haircut? (this is an example and in no way is this what I think Nadeo is doing)

People see the negatives because it's really what to talk about here. What discussion can you make from the topic "The new walljumps are really great"? People probably see the good things, otherwise they wouldn't spend time on the forums talking about the bad things, they'd just leave the game.

The point is you need to write the negative things in a positive manner. For example you could write "This thing would be better if you did this" instead of saying "Nadeo, remove this crap".

[sadzealot]

But for me, the topic here is about the negative effect of being negative toward the other members of the community. It's like in a party, if you have negativeness, it's less interesting to stay. Look at the first sentence of this thread and see if it's something normal: "Can your tongue be any further up Nadeos nosunshine-place? " Now imagine I would write like that how much negative it would be perceived. You can be super critic and positive at the same time. Being negative is just negative..

For the love of god, when will you hire your own personal English -> French translator? I have made it clear on several occasions over the last couple of years that either you 1) Don't understand english or 2) Deliberately misunderstand what you read.

Now, you have firmly denied that #2 is the case, so it must be that your english absolutely sucks balls.

What is negative about what I wrote that you quoted? Absolutely nothing. It's a matter of formulation to express an opinion. There is nothing negative about it, unless YOU, the grandmaster gamedesigner aka Hylis want to see it as negative?

An asskisser is a term for someone who kisses ass. I obviously can't write asskisser because TMarc or someone else will come and edit my post because "bad language" (read: ASS) isn't allowed to write on these forums. Thus it was rebranded "Can your tongue be furhter up their nonsunshine-place".

But let's move on to other things like OUTRIGHT LYING shall we? So what happened to the free Elite/Royal at launch? Oh right, outright lie.

What happened to the focus on Esport and competitiveness? Oh right, outright lie.

What happened to the POWER UP! Which would adress so many of (particularly) my concerns? Oh right, nothing. In fact, the first updates related to Power Up! did in fact show that you are going in the opposite way of my concerns, yet YOU, specifically stated on these forums that the Power Up! would adress many of my concerns about the game.

And it's like I've stated multiple times throughout the last year, you DO NOT UNDERSTAND MY CONCERNS!

Which I'm why I'm telling you to either stop lying or to hire yourself a english->french translator.

Seriously, get over yourself and stop seeing everything as negative. All I do is I write in a certain way that you clearly don't approve of.

Then either you deal with it, start censoring all posts with similiar language or you stop calling it negativity.

Because it's not negativity, its' a way of expressing myself. You can find it rude, offensive or any other "bad" words you have labeled me over the last year, but to call it negative shows that that's all you're about these days. Whining about negativity and labeling everything that doesn't say "WE LOVE YOU NADEO! WE LOVE HYLIS!" in the first 2 sentences of any post as negative.

And I could say that any game-dev with the respect for themselves would patch Matchmaking-bugs within days of being discovered, but that would be negative wouldn't it? Since you know, I'm implying that we're 1,5 years after "official" release of the game and there are still massive bugs ruining the "fun" for everyone.

I could ofcourse say "Imagine Valve right.. Imagine you queuing up with 4 friends in Dota to play a game right, then having all friends end up in different games and someone being put in Low Priority queue after because they had to abandon the game... Imagine if this happened and was a known reported bug? How long before this would be patched"?

Then you would ofcourse find the time to write a 1000 word reply that would state how Valve is a much bigger company, how they have more resources, how Dota is not Shootmania and in general, how much of an ass I am in my posts.

And thus proving the point you DONT GET IT!

The point is about showing how YOU, as a developer, simply make bad decisions on a day to day basis. As soon as critical bugs like that is found it should be patched within HOURS! Not 6 months later, or 2 years later.

And that's the difference between a sucessfull developer and a failing one.

I am sure you can find 1-2 sentences in here you can quote and reply about and miss the GENERAL point I'm trying to adress here. I'm sure you will label this as negative too and not see the actual LEGITIMATE criticism in the post.

And it's those valuable skills you have that makes you such an amazing game developer. Being able to overlook perfectly valid criticism becasue you view it as "being negative" or mentally blocking it out as it doesn't fit into your world view about yourself as this amazing innovative gamedesigner.

(Yes, I am sure you will quote this and be upset that I'm now turning it personal, something I've refrained... BTW Hylis, refrained means "Stop yourself from doing" in case your english-to-french dictionary is lacking in that department.... from doing in the past, but seeing as you've done this on multiple occasions I felt it was time)

Also, as a sidenote... why do you think the game now has much more negativity than what it had during early beta when it in fact had a buzz around it with positivity?

Can it be because we're 2 years later and nothing has changed? Can it actually be because you as a developer has failed? CAN IT? Please answer this with a yes, because I fear that in your own head you think all this negativity comes from me and a few others having "infected" others with it. You really believe this don't you?

I've seen you stating on the forums on many occasions how you fear that this "small group of negative players" are ruining it for others.

If you really believe that this is the reason, keep believing so for the rest of the future. I'm afraid the actual truth might be too hurtful for you to take into account.