Debate on TM² Canyon in eSport

[tcq]

Here, you're doing exactly the same thing by buying TM2 and participating in TM2 events. The very presence of your name, and your sponsor in a TM2 tournament is a vote for your support. You supported TM2 simply by purchasing it - that money is now being used to further that model and monetize tournaments. It's like the person who claims to hate Walmart for its big business model, but then turns around and purchases a product there. As much as you claim to stand up for your ideals, your actions speak very differently. So which is it - will you continue the hypocrisy or leave TM2?

Just to give a little side note. Frost only participated in the Alienware tournament and now has inscribed for the Zotac cup. He won't participate in the nations cup for Sweden in TM2, nor did he joined any team to play another TM team tournament. So what's the connection between Alienware and Zotac? I think you guessed it. You can win money. I'm not saying he only plays for the money, i'm just pointing out this strange coincidence.

[Weeeeee]

Here, you're doing exactly the same thing by buying TM2 and participating in TM2 events. The very presence of your name, and your sponsor in a TM2 tournament is a vote for your support. You supported TM2 simply by purchasing it - that money is now being used to further that model and monetize tournaments. It's like the person who claims to hate Walmart for its big business model, but then turns around and purchases a product there. As much as you claim to stand up for your ideals, your actions speak very differently. So which is it - will you continue the hypocrisy or leave TM2?

Just to give a little side note. Frost only participated in the Alienware tournament and now has inscribed for the Zotac cup. He won't participate in the nations cup for Sweden in TM2, nor did he joined any team to play another TM team tournament. So what's the connection between Alienware and Zotac? I think you guessed it. You can win money. I'm not saying he only plays for the money, i'm just pointing out this strange coincidence.

He does only play tm2 for the money,he already stated that himself

[iceman23]

Here, you're doing exactly the same thing by buying TM2 and participating in TM2 events. The very presence of your name, and your sponsor in a TM2 tournament is a vote for your support. You supported TM2 simply by purchasing it - that money is now being used to further that model and monetize tournaments. It's like the person who claims to hate Walmart for its big business model, but then turns around and purchases a product there. As much as you claim to stand up for your ideals, your actions speak very differently. So which is it - will you continue the hypocrisy or leave TM2?

Just to give a little side note. Frost only participated in the Alienware tournament and now has inscribed for the Zotac cup. He won't participate in the nations cup for Sweden in TM2, nor did he joined any team to play another TM team tournament. So what's the connection between Alienware and Zotac? I think you guessed it. You can win money. I'm not saying he only plays for the money, i'm just pointing out this strange coincidence.

Of course, I think that's clear - but not something I fundamentally disagree with either. And I don't want him to turn the discussion on this fact and disregard my points, as this is not my argument. That's his prerogative to play for whatever reason he desires, and I won't discredit that. The hypocrisy lies not in the purpose of his participation, but the very fact he participates at all. But it does allow us to draw an interesting conclusion: he values money over his ideals. Quite odd for someone who claims that supporting these ideals is an essential part of their character.

[TGYoshi]

Here, you're doing exactly the same thing by buying TM2 and participating in TM2 events. The very presence of your name, and your sponsor in a TM2 tournament is a vote for your support. You supported TM2 simply by purchasing it - that money is now being used to further that model and monetize tournaments. It's like the person who claims to hate Walmart for its big business model, but then turns around and purchases a product there. As much as you claim to stand up for your ideals, your actions speak very differently. So which is it - will you continue the hypocrisy or leave TM2?

Just to give a little side note. Frost only participated in the Alienware tournament and now has inscribed for the Zotac cup. He won't participate in the nations cup for Sweden in TM2, nor did he joined any team to play another TM team tournament. So what's the connection between Alienware and Zotac? I think you guessed it. You can win money. I'm not saying he only plays for the money, i'm just pointing out this strange coincidence.

He does only play tm2 for the money,he already stated that himself

If he only plays for the money it's a simple conclusion: he doesn't want to re-master a game so it's profitable for him.
Myself I don't care for people who only play for money.

[tcq]

He does only play tm2 for the money,he already stated that himself

Sorry Weeeeee, seems like i somehow missed this statement.

Of course, I think that's clear - but not something I fundamentally disagree with either. And I don't want him to turn the discussion on this fact and disregard my points, as this is not my argument. That's his prerogative to play for whatever reason he desires, and I won't discredit that. The hypocrisy lies not in the purpose of his participation, but the very fact he participates at all. But it does allow us to draw an interesting conclusion: he values money over his ideals. Quite odd for someone who claims that supporting these ideals is an essential part of their character.

I don't have a problem with it either and i didn't want to distort your argumentation, i just wanted to point out that he discredits his aims with his actions. I mean, he plays successful TMN, then the new game arrives. He bought it, played it and went back to TMN. Then i don't see a problem at all. But the on going aggressive statement against TM2 and the destruction of the esport (the one of TMN) by it i still think is okay. But then participating himself in TM2 tournaments, simply makes his whole argumentation a laugh. But that's not my problem.

If he wants to discuss about the possible future of both TMN and TM2, i'm gladly here to do some discussion.

[iceman23]

But the on going aggressive statement against TM2 and the destruction of the esport (the one of TMN) by it i still think is okay. But then participating himself in TM2 tournaments, simply makes his whole argumentation a laugh.

Exactly

[FrostBeule]

Frost, let's try to look at this from a purely objective point of view. What, fundamentally, makes canyon less suited for esport? As a singular entity, I cannot think of a reason other than it seems to be more beneficial to play with a pad or some sort of analog controller rather than the keyboard, rendering in inherently less accessible than the stadium environment.

I haven't said that Canyon is less suited as an esport, ive said that TM2 is less suited as an esport as i don't believe in the ”triathlon” concept it represents. I believe an esport should be much more stable and only focused on 1 game and not 3 at the same time. It's like you'd be playing SC2, WC3 and some other RTS game at the same time and anknowledge it as the same game. I don't think that works very well, and there's never existed such thing in the esports history either. and even if you look at IRL where sure you do see this concept somewhat being represented, but it's definitely not on the same level whatsoever.

though if you DO make a comparison with only Canyon and Stadium, then i still think Stadium is superior as an esport for mainly 2 reasons: 1. the aesthetics of it - it just feels and looks more of an esport with how the car looks like and the fact that it's in an actual stadium. driving around in a canyon doesn't feel as "esporty". you may say that this isn't that important, but i feel like it does make a big difference. 2. the controls. as you said yourself, in stadium you can compete on the same level whether you play with a keyboard, gamepad or heck, in some cases even a joystick. in canyon it's much more important that you are more precise in your drifts and try to get as much speed out of the turns, which i find gamepads does a much better work at. also i just find the "flow" of stadium much more satisfying than in Canyon and im personally not a huge fan of precision-based racing games (i didn't like any of the TMO or TMS environments when i tried them). and ofc if you make the comparison with TM2 then a 3rd reason is introduced which as previously mentioned is the difference of concept.

Now, I will concede that with the addition of new environments, a distinction should be made as to which environment will be supported by Nadeo in tournaments. The necessity to adapt to multiple physics engines is certainly a detriment to accessibility and tournament organization. However, we don't know how Nadeo will handle this, or if even matters to their business model to do so, as such it really cannot be used as a point of contention yet.

If Nadeo would make a distinction between the environments, then that would go against what they've always said Trackmania is only about: what i would like to call the "triathlon" concept, meaning you are supposed to play all environments at the same time and respect them as equal, so i don't think they would do that. but even if they make this distinction i don't think it's gonna make things much better because then they're just gonna piss off the people that are a fan of the "triathlon" concept - the original concept of Trackmania. So regardless of how they handle it, i think it's gonna be a mess.

This problem, believe it or not, is one exacerbated by TMN ESWC players themselves. I think the success of this game went far beyond Nadeo's original intentions, and the esport "ideal" it is portrayed as being created as is far overstated (originally it was a promotional tool)- it was brought about by the players themselves. This is the fundamental flaw in your argument. In the end, its the players, not Nadeo, who create the backbone and formation of an esport entity. No matter how much money Nadeo throws at a game, if the players don't support it, it simply cannot happen. Nadeo's philosophy has been based on creation, community participation and fun from the very beginning - the players turned what was fundamentally a promotional concept into a esport.

You are right that the players made the esport/TMN what it is today. I am merely stating that for an esport to be HEALTHY there should be a sound relationship between the esports community and the developers, which is something we do not have at all. That's how you take the next step, and a perfect example of that is how Blizzard is handling SC2. Sure without the support of Blizzard, SC2 would've still been an esport, just like TMN remains an esport despite Nadeo not supporting it as one, but it wouldn't have reached the next level where it is today. however TMN is hardly as popular as SC2 so that makes us more vulnerable for sure, but in no way does it mean that TMN will die. as i said, i think TMN is doing better than ever as an esport on purely a ground-base level meaning we have more people that care more about the game.

By buying TMU, playing, and competing in tournaments in TMNF, these players supported Nadeo's multiple environment model (regardless if it was designed for esports or not, or if they intended to play other environments) and eventually all the competition moved there.

what do you mean with "eventually all the competition moved there." i can't make any sense out of it.

Here, you're doing exactly the same thing by buying TM2 and participating in TM2 events. The very presence of your name, and your sponsor in a TM2 tournament is a vote for your support. You supported TM2 simply by purchasing it - that money is now being used to further that model and monetize tournaments. It's like the person who claims to hate Walmart for its big business model, but then turns around and purchases a product there. As much as you claim to stand up for your ideals, your actions speak very differently. So which is it - will you continue the hypocrisy or leave TM2?

Me playing TM2 does not mean that i support the "multiple environment model", it simply means that i am TRYING to make the best out of this very complicated situation. if i would only play and support TMN and completely ignore TM2 then that would not make my team or sponsors happy, because they naturally want me to compete in prize-tournaments (which there are some of right now in TM2) and don't really care/know about this situation. and as fucked up as it sounds, i can't risk to lose that for personal reasons. also, since i don't believe that TM2 will last in esports for that long as i simply don't believe the concept of it works in esports, it doesn't make any sense for me to fight for it to avoid its - i think - inevitable doom as an esports game. so that's why you only see me playing in TM2 money tournaments. That and the fact that i simply prefer TMN over TM2 as a game and there's only so much time. but if i only supported TM2 then that would go against my ideals completely so i can't/want to do that obviously. so im just trying to make the best out of the situation, a situation that is far from easy. but maybe im not doing it the best possible way. perhaps taking the chance of losing everything that i've worked for for so long is the way to go.

If he only plays for the money it's a simple conclusion: he doesn't want to re-master a game so it's profitable for him.
Myself I don't care for people who only play for money.

i am so far away from only caring about money. The truth is that i am probably the player in the history of TMN that's participated the most in non-money tournaments out of the elite. But it doesn't make any sense for me to do that too in TM2, and nor is it probably even possible. and i believe i've always had a natural talent for any (unrealistic) racing games, and my skills in Canyon are pretty good as im sure people who have played versus me can confirm. so it's definitely not a fear about re-mastering a new game, trust me.

I don't have a problem with it either and i didn't want to distort your argumentation, i just wanted to point out that he discredits his aims with his actions. I mean, he plays successful TMN, then the new game arrives. He bought it, played it and went back to TMN. Then i don't see a problem at all. But the on going aggressive statement against TM2 and the destruction of the esport (the one of TMN) by it i still think is okay. But then participating himself in TM2 tournaments, simply makes his whole argumentation a laugh. But that's not my problem.

This is still what i aim to do.

[iceman23]

Me playing TM2 does not mean that i support the "multiple environment model", it simply means that i am TRYING to make the best out of this very complicated situation. if i would only play and support TMN and completely ignore TM2 then that would not make my team or sponsors happy, because they naturally want me to compete in prize-tournaments (which there are some of right now in TM2) and don't really care/know about this situation. and as fucked up as it sounds, i can't risk to lose that for personal reasons. also, since i don't believe that TM2 will last in esports for that long as i simply don't believe the concept of it works in esports, it doesn't make any sense for me to fight for it to avoid its - i think - inevitable doom as an esports game. so that's why you only see me playing in TM2 money tournaments. That and the fact that i simply prefer TMN over TM2 as a game and there's only so much time. but if i only supported TM2 then that would go against my ideals completely so i can't/want to do that obviously. so im just trying to make the best out of the situation, a situation that is far from easy. but maybe im not doing it the best possible way. perhaps taking the chance of losing everything that i've worked for for so long is the way to go.

Basically all you're saying here is that you value money over your ideals. That's a choice you have to make. And yes, by giving Nadeo your money and your name in a tournament, you're supporting them. Do you think any sponsor would give money to a tournament if no one showed up? Of course not. The simple fact that you are participating is beneficial to the advancement of TM2. This is not complicated logic to follow. Either your character is not how you say it is, or you've chosen to support TM2. There is no middle ground here. You can answer my question honestly or continue beating around the bush - either way I'm done here, I can see this is a waste of my time.

[FrostBeule]

Me playing TM2 does not mean that i support the "multiple environment model", it simply means that i am TRYING to make the best out of this very complicated situation. if i would only play and support TMN and completely ignore TM2 then that would not make my team or sponsors happy, because they naturally want me to compete in prize-tournaments (which there are some of right now in TM2) and don't really care/know about this situation. and as fucked up as it sounds, i can't risk to lose that for personal reasons. also, since i don't believe that TM2 will last in esports for that long as i simply don't believe the concept of it works in esports, it doesn't make any sense for me to fight for it to avoid its - i think - inevitable doom as an esports game. so that's why you only see me playing in TM2 money tournaments. That and the fact that i simply prefer TMN over TM2 as a game and there's only so much time. but if i only supported TM2 then that would go against my ideals completely so i can't/want to do that obviously. so im just trying to make the best out of the situation, a situation that is far from easy. but maybe im not doing it the best possible way. perhaps taking the chance of losing everything that i've worked for for so long is the way to go.

Basically all you're saying here is that you value money over your ideals. That's a choice you have to make. And yes, by giving Nadeo your money and your name in a tournament, you're supporting them. Do you think any sponsor would give money to a tournament if no one showed up? Of course not. The simple fact that you are participating is beneficial to the advancement of TM2. This is not complicated logic to follow. Either your character is not how you say it is, or you've chosen to support TM2. There is no middle ground here. You can answer my question honestly or continue beating around the bush - either way I'm done here, I can see this is a waste of my time.

i didn't say that i wasn't supporting Nadeo, i was saying im not supporting and nor do i believe in the "multiple environment model" as an esport as you put it. of course im aware that im technically supporting Nadeo in a way if i buy their game and competes in it. and i think i explained as to why. this situation is not black and white, sadly. and my so called "support" for TM2 i don't think will be beneficial enough for it to survive as an esports game.

[Trackmaniack]

Then why does it matter if you support it or not, if, as you say, it's not going to survive as an esport game?