Maniaplanet Forum

Sadzealot, I will answer you since I feel that your post is much less negative than before. I am not saying this to be negative, but just to hope for some clarifications with you.

You believe I do not read what the community is saying, and it's totally wrong. I am reading a lot, and it's just that it's always much more complicated than what you seem to think. You also wrote that "And not very well supported by the developer" which is totally wrong as well. It's the opposite in fact, and I would bet that it's because you would like us to make short term choices based on compromise, instead of longer term ones based on solid building of things.

For the Shootmania Storm Power Up! phase, you will see some major elements to answer some of your strongest wishes. It comes from what you say and I have nothing against that. I always read as much negative players as positive players and there is no reason for me to ignore more some than others. I just believe that some negative ones are moved by some sort of hate of something, and that there is no need to talk with them. Maybe it comes from the fact that they don't seem to accept that it's our expertise to make games. You say that "SM is a BETTER game than many other games out there" And it's kind of you. And if you need to look after one of the biggest brand and powerful studio in the world to scary us, I think it's kind of you as well. But you should avoid to think we are that bad then. Nadeo did not existed when I was already reading their article about development of the core engine. If I remember right, they were 3 at the beginning, for three years, or something like that. It's fun to see how time has made things change. Nobody talk about Quake 4 here as well. I know it's another studio, but don't your think that they had good adVisor? So, it's probably just more complicated than only simple advices.

Making a solid FPS is really demanding, and it's the first step before doing anything else to have a great one later. Read carefully what I am going to right on the "Power Up!" operation, and you shall see that we share some feelings. Maybe the main difference is that I am patient because I know what we did and what we can do, while you may think we are not a good team.

I am not here to make friend or say you are right, or wrong. I believe you are right on various gameplay aspects, and I don't think you saw me tell the contrary. But I believe you are wrong to be negative like you are sometimes, and I wish you to become, one day, an happy zealot, and be more positive.

I just saw a story about Facebook using their users to potentially prove that the good or bad feelings are communicative. If it's true, I just think that you may have some bad influence on some other players. But for me, it changes nothing. I am just looking at making the best game as possible, with patience and quality work. And I am quite confident that we will succeed. But it should change nothing for you as well.

Hi all.

To get back to the subject I am a player which disagree with the update. After playing a while and try to persuade myself that I still like the game as before the update, I have beginning to stop playing and return to an old love, Quake ^^.
I try to play a few matches per day, because I have found really cool players here. I think I have played a lot before the update and I even started to make maps (try to, results are not always good ^^).

I really enjoy playing with SM players. There are a lot them I really appreciate. Without them, I would have stop the game right after the update, because it's not what I've paid for, that's all.

I have paid for the game when it was release, I have something else one year later and I really don't like this. I don't care if developing SM is complicated, I'm a player not a game designer. I still hope getting back some of the old stuff I liked before the update but I don't believe it. Still I have posted problems reports and after that, wishes (Understand that I'm not a "forum guy" but I think SM is really a good FPS and it deserve that I spent a few minutes of my time).

There's good thing in the update, like mix mapping, but there's to much things I dislike (and mix mapping is not optimised, I've got FPS drops on maps which use it heavily). In fact Mix mapping & air mapping are the only things I really appreciated, sorry (I don't understand the other editors and having to make a custom title pack for a new object seem completely surrealist to me) . New blocks are not really interesting, new visuals & sounds neither and jumping in the tunnel is heresy ^^. I'm not good enough to judge the wall jump, but I've seen people complaining about that. And It's not serious to have to recalculate and/or rework old maps just because of MP3. I haven't appreciated recalculate shadows on the few maps I have done.

I understand SSM team, and there's a lot of SSM servers, thanks to them. This game is great, but it look like really amateurish, I am sorry to say that.

I wait for the update and I'll try to play it daily, at least one or two matches to support SM.

I've try to say what I feel, hope my English is a least understandable ^^'.

To Nadéo I still wish you "bon courage". To SSM I say "Pas Content" ^^.

Bye and HF,

SotK

Even though I agree with a lot of things that have been said by sadzealot and caspa...

sadzealot wrote:And then there has been the changes to the game. New blocks? Looks cool and all, but on most you can't walljump on the sides. Because there's stuff in the way.

caspa wrote:Obviously Shootmania isn't just elite, but all of these blocks that have been added have absolutely no use when it comes to competitive gameplay.

... I'm not quite sure if we should assume all of that has too much to do with SSM turning down their MM servers.

We should really distinguish here between 1. Bugs and 2. Bad Design Choices.

The Matchmaking System not working properly anymore obviously is a Bug and measured by the number of players that play regularly on MM servers it is a huge one. After thinking about it for a while I wonder why we were so baffled about SSM shutting down their MM. If it didn't work, why bother having it? People were not having fun anyway, were they?
This is something where I wished Nadeo would simply make a thread/post stating that they've done fucked it up and they will get back the old MM or make an even better one given some time. Period.
Apparently with every update something in MP is damaged or destroyed and we gotta live with that, but as long as Nadeo does not manage to not introduce a new bug for every fix, and it really feels like a Hydra sometimes, I would like to see them to openly announce those bugs they found, that are of high priority to fix, so people don't need to complain all over the forums for the same thing.

Generally I feel like there is no place in the forum where people can report bugs. The wishlist is good for things that we'd like to see in the future, but everyone is completely clueless how that list is treated by Nadeo.
An explicit bug list would give me a lot more confidence that they are actually seen and treated as a high priority problem.
I found that MP3 has fixed some sliding woods, making them smooth and not bumpy. However testing my maps I have also found that two other sliding woods are now bumpy instead of smooth. I have been hesitant to make a post for that because there is no place for those things. The wishlist alone is fucking huge, disorganised and I hate to read through it.

Long story short: I wish Nadeo would actually give us the feeling that they do not only work on many new features, that are all aimed at different little parts of the community, and therefore sometimes feel like not worth waiting for, but also try to fix bugs, that never should have existed in the first place.

(I have been told that the "red instead of white alternative colour"-bug will be fixed in the new update, but until then I have been ranting very often, because there was no way of telling if it's gonna happen or not. I could have been ranting about something else all that time.)


Anyway, Bugs are something that happen in every game and sure, a highly complex project like MP will be likely to cause some bugs. The really heated discussions, and also 90% of sadzealots posts, have been about Bad Design Choices, or at least about what people find to be bad choices.

Sure, opinions differ, especially those of skilled/veteran players and those of fun/new players, but very often gameplay changes and additions have been absolutely uncalled for.
I am yet to find a situation for progressive walljumps. Yet that last update has crippled walljumps altogether making them ever so slightly less powerful, making moves on some of the most iconic Speedball maps obsolete. Also the need to hold the fucking jump button for ever walljump is awkward and almost painful... I'm ranting again.
What I mean to say is, that no one can tell me what it was introduced for, even though I had to sacrifice 20 months old moves for it.
The same applies for the new textures. Why have the old textures been erased? No one can tell me. There is no reason why there should not be two different, well made(!), texture packs for this game.

The new blocks all suck dick. There are so many idiots now putting them all over the place, making every single map a non-movement area, because you cannot walljump of anything. The older the game gets, the more work Nadeo seems to put into Decoration blocks that only end up standing in the way instead of adding to the gameplay.
When the power blocks were introduced there has been all this fuzz about how they will add variety to the gameplay, which is okay, I like to use them too every now an then. But with these MP3-blocks, please explain to me, why you could not give me stairs without those extinguished (!) torches that are always standing in the way, for fucks sake.

If the new maps Nadeo releases are meant to explain what the new blocks are good for, then I must say that it works well in my opinion. They all suck. All the old Nadeo-maps were simple and fun, but whenever a mapper forces himself to use only new blocks to show off their "potential" it ends up in a pile of unplayable, anti-skill garbage.

I'm ranting again...

Hylis always tells people that they just don't understand... how could I? I don't feel like anything is explained to me in the first place and when I try to make my own opinion, I come to the conclusion: some things simply suck and Nadeo decided to do them anyway.

Maybe my opinion would not be that harsh if the gameplay updates and additions would come with explanations for how we are meant to benefit from it and i would not feel the need to come here and rant about it and instead have an actual discussion about pros and cons...

caspa wrote:To me, whats worse is the kind of post that TMarc likes to make. He likes to make all sorts of strange assumptions about gameplay and the community, defending SM and MP to the hilt.

@ TMarc
When I see a "Global Moderator" I think of a referee not of an opposition.
You however always seem to be defending Nadeo and the games against any form of criticism. I swear to the gods you sometimes just try to counter whatever someone said, even though you actually have no knowledge whatsoever about the topic being discussed.
I don't like anyone who does that, especially not if the person is meant to sustain a good atmosphere for discussions, as a moderator should be in my opinion. Simply telling everyone: "You're wrong! And I am going to make up some shit that I have actually never before wasted a single thought on.", is exactly not that.

You are free to have your opinion and to discuss, but, please, not only for the sake of discussing...


PS: 1195 words 6487 characters
Thanks to everyone who actually read all of that.

For the same reason: why should it not be the case?
You see, we can have arguments for and against, and on some we even agree.
Nothing bad about it.
I don't want to impose my view point, but I would like to have clarity, especially
under which circumstances a rocket or laser hit on a fence can affect the player behind it.

Yes, of course we can debate it and it is a refreshing to see such a notion suggested on these forums. (While as players we debate with each other, when the other side is the Nadeo team I've rarely ever seen a true debate.) What the real big problem was, is that as players we expect the game and all of its aspects to function consistently. Rockets going through the fence was not an example of that - and that is the real reason why it was a problem (and this is the reason why lasers passing through a fence should not be the case). At first it was hard to re-create, but it discovered that if the point of impact was on the players knee (or thereabouts), then generally the bug would occur. As far as I know, this was fixed - I haven't seen it happen in a very very long time. Which leads me to believe that rails/rockets were never intended to pass through a fence

Don't you make the gameply too easy then?
Is having players visible through fences, but not reachable for any weapons, sufficient as tradeoff?
If this is the main agreement and also the intended purpose from Nadeo, I'm fine with that,
and if weapons still manage to pass through... most probably a bug, if the player (hitbox) is noticeably lower than the fence is.

Yes the game is too "easy" - I'd prefer to say "simple" at the risk of being targeted as some sort of elitist. (And anyway, regarding the game being easy -thats a whole different topic)
There is more to it than just being a simple tradeoff. Fences are primarily utilised by defenders (I'm speaking strictly about Elite), as an attacker cannot sit at a fence the entire round and win the round (as they must eliminate everyone or cap the pole). My point is that, by being an attacker you already have the advantage of having a singlehit-kill weapon. This is why I actually feel that fences are somewhat balanced - they are far more useful for a defender than an attacker. When you sit behind a fence as a defender you know that you can't be hit while the attacker is on the other side - that is something that you trust in, and is consistent. When a rail passes through randomly, that consistency is lost.

I did not forget it at all, but isn't that asking for too much realism suddenly?
Laser has a very small wavelength compared to the grid size of the typical fences that are placed in SM.
If players can see each other without difficulties, laser should pass it as well without being altered, causing clear hits then, but that is contrary to caspas interpretation

With this response I feel you've opened up another part of the conversation. Judging by your previous posts you want the game to still remain somewhat grounded in reality - but when we get into deeper aspects of it its too much? Where do you draw the line on realism? Talking about rails passing through fences counts to me as "too much realism". Isn't Nadeo's ethos about keeping things simple? I feel like this whole discussion regarding the intricacies of laser/lightning is irrelevant.

But, lets entertain that idea: the laser is extremely thin and if it can fit through the gaps, then shouldn't it be happening all the time? If it really was the case then I'd imagine it would happen quite a lot.
I'm also wondering why you didn't refer to the first paragraph of my previous post.

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Anyway, my issues with SM/MP/Nadeo go far beyond the actual software itself. MPoTK has put it nicely:

I really enjoy playing with SM players. There are a lot them I really appreciate. Without them, I would have stop the game right after the update, because it's not what I've paid for, that's all.

I have paid for the game when it was release, I have something else one year later and I really don't like this. I don't care if developing SM is complicated, I'm a player not a game designer. I still hope getting back some of the old stuff I liked before the update but I don't believe it. Still I have posted problems reports and after that, wishes (Understand that I'm not a "forum guy" but I think SM is really a good FPS and it deserve that I spent a few minutes of my time).

This is something that resonates with me. At various points in its lifetime, SM has had some great features and mechanics (e.g b2 minijumps/walljumps). When I first began to play (July 2012), the game was in what we call beta1. You had to make a decision about everything you did (jumping for stamina was a big decision itself - you do it in the wrong place or at the wrong time and you really paid for it. Obviously that still exists to some extent but its been negated by having more possibilities in movement), and making use of all of your surroundings to do smart plays was really quite rewarding. Even though the game in terms of mechanics was way more simple, I feel like the game was actually deeper than it is now because all of your actions had potential consequences.

I think its worse that now I can never go back and enjoy those old experiences again (it was possible before with elite-exp). Now if I want to play shootmania I'm forced to play with these dull, nerfed mechanics. I really do believe that all the fun aspects of this game have been removed. I'd love to go back and play beta1 again, even just out of curiosity just to see what it feels like compared to what we have now. When beta2 launched I was really happy, I totally agreed with the direction that the game was going. They took most of these fun parts and upgraded them. Anyway I'm straying from my point.

When a game is in beta, you can generally expect that game to be feature-complete (ie, it won't change too drastically before release). The jump to beta2 was quite big, but the game still felt like the shootmania that we knew.
I only signed up to these forums a year ago because before that, I didn't feel like there was much point. The game was in a good state. I made an account here so I could join the discussion regarding the removal of beta2 mechanics. After what I think was at least two 20page threads, where most of the community offered their thoughts (which was mostly, "please do not change this stuff"), this stuff was still taken away from us. And even though I was still very much against it, I couldn't really say much because ESWC was around the corner and if I wanted to go I had to make the transition to beta3. I feel like this is a factor in why people kept playing - going to ESWC is a great occasion and anyone who plays SM competitively will have the desire to go there. If we didn't accept these changes and keep playing, having any chance of competing there completely goes out of the window. Which leads me to my next point..

There is a clear issue with communication on these forums. As it stands, this is really the only place that we can try and offer feedback. There seems to be an unofficial rule on here - if you don't convey your concerns in a somewhat positive light, they will be ignored. To me, this is the greatest crime of all.

I always read as much negative players as positive players and there is no reason for me to ignore more some than others. I just believe that some negative ones are moved by some sort of hate of something, and that there is no need to talk with them. Maybe it comes from the fact that they don't seem to accept that it's our expertise to make games.

This is where you are wrong Hylis. I feel really strongly about this. I don't know to what extent you believe that these posts are driven by hate, but have you ever entertained the idea that if someone makes a post full of expletives and negative language, maybe it was because they are actually quite passionate about the game and want their voice to be heard? It is actually quite easy to tell the difference between a hate-filled post and constructive criticism.

Like I said, most of us who post on here want our voices to be heard. But when we are met with this general feeling "be positive or don't be heard at all" (this is how I and many many others see it), what are we supposed to do? I don't know if you are familiar with the concept, but it is known as a "tone argument" - in the course of debate, dismissing someone based on percieved anger or offensiveness. When it comes to feedback, people's posts should be judged on their merits, not in the way that they are presented. To refer back to the big discussions around beta2 mechanics last year, many people were incensed when they heard about the changes that were going to be made. We are humans, it is only natural to feel emotion and I believe that those "negative" posts should have as much attention paid to them as "positive" posts. When its not, its pretty much a thinly veiled form of discrimination.

To sum this second part of my post up... I really feel that this forum has issues that have directly impacted on the potential for this game to grow, and the root of the cause is simply nadeo....

Edit1: Hylis:

I would bet that it's because you would like us to make short term choices based on compromise, instead of longer term ones based on solid building of things.

Yes, we would love that. You won't like to hear this, but what is the point of focusing on the long-term if the playerbase is non-existent by the time everything is completed? Judging by the trend of the playerbase rapidly dwindling, you can't really deny that this is not happening.

Also, i agree with TMarc regarding opening up a new topic to continue this discussion.

Edit2: I can't seem to find the post, but in another thread Hylis said something about sadzealot spending all his time on these forums being negative. Why would he be doing it if he didn't care strongly about shootmania...

Edit3: UrinStein has put everything quite nicely in his post. Agree 100%. And regarding the part about TMarc, that is exactly how I feel and how I wanted to say it in my first post in this thread (which ultimately failed). So thank you for putting my thoughts down in a much better way than I could

So the response from Hylis in the end said nothing. It said "We are working on this and this, long term long term, need time need time, I will try and make our thoughts about the way forward clearer"

But even that explanation doesn't really say anything. It's many vague words about nothing really, mostly saying "We are building a strong fundament for a long term plan"...

I've said before, that the 5 year plan you have isn't gonna work. But anyway.. I've said what I've needed to say. If you need to read my full descriptions for why I think many of the B2 GAMEPLAY-designs were better, just go back to launch-time last year and read my posts from then

Quick edit:

This was my posts from February 2013 - http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic. ... 30#p144935

This was what my posts started sounding like in August 2013 after Nadeo made it clear B3 was the way forward and refusing to listen at all - http://forum.maniaplanet.com/viewtopic. ... 80#p184523

Ok, forget when I said that you were more positive. You are just negative.

I just said "For the Shootmania Storm Power Up! phase, you will see some major elements to answer some of your strongest wishes." It starts within a week. And you write "It's many vague words about nothing really, mostly saying "We are building a strong fundament for a long term plan"..."

So, go back to your world of being negative, and enjoy.

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Edit: And if you don't know what positive is, you could have write: "Good to read that you are taking some of my wishes into account. And yes, you are right that I am making great comparison with other games and studios, and if you though I was insulting toward you, then I apologize. This being said, I will be careful about next update, since I still have difficulties to believe that you really share my feelings on the gameplay"

But you've done it before Hylis, don't you know that? Whenever a certain amount of tension/criticism brews on these forums, you always come out and say "We shall tell you about our plans and thoughts forward, and all will be made clear you see".

And then you come and you say in the end nothing. A bunch of big fancy words about how good everything is coming along, about how much better it will be.

And this time? What does what you said even mean in terms of actual results? In the end, very little I fear. Will bounce rockets be taken away from being blockbased? Will walljumps ever be good again? (Notice how people for the most part want stable Beta2 walljumps more than the current ones. Something you were warned about last year once the change went through, yet you went ahead anyway. Now are you gonna go back? Ofcourse not, because you're all about moving forward).

My frustration simply comes from seeing what has amazing potential being pissed away by you and your team. It is your game, it is your project so do what you want, but I'll be damned if I'm not gonna be upset when I see you actively steering your ship right into an iceberg.

All I have to do is say "Weapon selection on defence in Elite" and everyone knows exactly what I mean when I say that you guys don't know what is good for your own game!

UrinStein wrote: I found that MP3 has fixed some sliding woods, making them smooth and not bumpy. However testing my maps I have also found that two other sliding woods are now bumpy instead of smooth. I have been hesitant to make a post for that because there is no place for those things.

Is this related to this bug report? Or something else ? If so please post your report in this thread, I'll check it out.
thank you

Sadman, It just shows that you still don't understand but it seems that there is nothing I can do to make this happen. Anyway, I don't know how you still think we can have made that "amazing potential" without having the head on our shoulders, when you are pretending that nearly any high level player would do better.

Stay negative and enjoy your time. You said that you would leave quite some time ago and you are still here. I think it's hard to explain.

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