Beta 3 RC1 laser tests

[dreammyw0w]

Last night we played some more Beta 3 with decent-high skilled players, and something happened which imo proves the half-reload regeneration after a hit needs to be nerfed.

On the IPL map Rust, on my attack round I went to the right to the grappling hook jump, knowing that I'd take a rail from the railpad (or maximum 2 in the worst case scenario) but wanting to do my trick jump there anyways.
What happened is I got railed THREE TIMES by the guy on the railpad in the time span that it would take an attacker in beta 2 to shoot ONE SHOT MAXIMUM.

The railpad already has faster reload, so now with the reload regeneration that happens with each hit, this is just a God-mode block on some maps. Unfortunately I was too surprised/confused to save the replay in time....

So true.


Im gonna post now my new findings after playing the beta3 for a week.

I play every day and 90% of the people I met online (& my friends) didnt like the beta3Elite. Every 2 matches I played (public) someone voted to change the serversettings to beta2Elite. Sometimes it didnt work, so they just left the server.
A lot of the servers I join dont even have the b3Elite settings. And when it is B3Elite settings, people are asking to only use rockets!

I tried to find clans to pracc with b3 settings. ALL of them refused.

At the pole you really dont stand a chance vs a defender with the nucleus. If you manage to shoot the nucleus ( the bullet ) you dont even get an instant reload. Even worse, the defender with the nucleus gets an instant reload...

And to be honest, I absolutely didnt care that all of my opponents wanted to play B2, because I really prefer it over B3.

Some suggestions :
- Remove nucleus as a defensive weapon. Only use it in tunnels.
- Dont let the laser on railpads reload so fast.
(- I dont like the laser either in defense , but with the slow reload speed it has now , its okay I guess )


Everything else in B3 is really awesome!

[v3rdi]

Last night we played some more Beta 3 with decent-high skilled players, and something happened which imo proves the half-reload regeneration after a hit needs to be nerfed.

On the IPL map Rust, on my attack round I went to the right to the grappling hook jump, knowing that I'd take a rail from the railpad (or maximum 2 in the worst case scenario) but wanting to do my trick jump there anyways.
What happened is I got railed THREE TIMES by the guy on the railpad in the time span that it would take an attacker in beta 2 to shoot ONE SHOT MAXIMUM.

The railpad already has faster reload, so now with the reload regeneration that happens with each hit, this is just a God-mode block on some maps. Unfortunately I was too surprised/confused to save the replay in time....

So true.


Im gonna post now my new findings after playing the beta3 for a week.

I play every day and 90% of the people I met online (& my friends) didnt like the beta3Elite. Every 2 matches I played (public) someone voted to change the serversettings to beta2Elite. Sometimes it didnt work, so they just left the server.
A lot of the servers I join dont even have the b3Elite settings. And when it is B3Elite settings, people are asking to only use rockets!

I tried to find clans to pracc with b3 settings. ALL of them refused.

At the pole you really dont stand a chance vs a defender with the nucleus. If you manage to shoot the nucleus ( the bullet ) you dont even get an instant reload. Even worse, the defender with the nucleus gets an instant reload...

And to be honest, I absolutely didnt care that all of my opponents wanted to play B2, because I really prefer it over B3.

Some suggestions :
- Remove nucleus as a defensive weapon. Only use it in tunnels.
- Dont let the laser on railpads reload so fast.
(- I dont like the laser either in defense , but with the slow reload speed it has now , its okay I guess )


Everything else in B3 is really awesome!

here i ask again did nadeo even think about what they add? (this is what we all are talking about atm)
this pooves they didnt think about it they just again threw something INTO the community and want US to use OUR brains to FIX them MISTAKES!

[neXz]

here i ask again did nadeo even think about what they add? (this is what we all are talking about atm)
this pooves they didnt think about it they just again threw something INTO the community and want US to use OUR brains to FIX them MISTAKES!

Yes, and I'd definitely like to thank you for your BRAIN's ongoing input on COMPETATIV play:

well for some reason its good that the netcode is so SHIT

well it was better and all competativ play is on beta 2 since the new one is not working.
and realy as i see it nadeo doesnt think about how the balance kicks off when they throw in stuff. else they would have already reworked the nucl. no they still have it the old way (wich was good cuz you had no nucl as main weapon) now you do and +0ing it gives the nucl more reload and all that.. tired of explaining everything.

the old elite was awesome simple best game ever the new one is just more or less a screw over!

keep elite classic and make a new pack called "elite screwup for fun" or something like that since elite was good as it was before. 2.0 elite -> good! leave it be.

NEVER TOUCH A RUNNING SYSTEM probably never hered that one...

[Hylis]

after these time of tests, I would suggest these changes for the 3.1

1. remove weapon selection by default of the mode, and keep it for players who would like to try it more (build maps, balance etc.)
2. make the railpad speed equal as a common railpad
3. reduce the quick ammo reload speed by 20%

My conclusion is that I think that railpads, bunker and tunnels are more numerous with new blocs and that this way of selecting weapon can be still be enough for weapon diversity in Elite. But I insist on the importance of trying to find ways to improve things and to stay open minded about it. Someone said to avoid to touch what is working, but the +0, the walljumps, the quick reload has been addition brought on top of the existing mode. It is important for the ability to improve things.

[steeffeen]

But I insist on the importance of trying to find ways to improve things and to stay open minded about it. Someone said to avoid to touch what is working, but the +0, the walljumps, the quick reload has been addition brought on top of the existing mode. It is important for the ability to improve things.

couldn't say it better! the game in alpha state was running as well and if you would have followed "never touch a running system" there wouldn't be these many new cool features added during the beta versions <3

stay open minded

[Zell]

after these time of tests, I would suggest these changes for the 3.1

1. remove weapon selection by default of the mode, and keep it for players who would like to try it more (build maps, balance etc.)
2. make the railpad speed equal as a common railpad
3. reduce the quick ammo reload speed by 20%

My conclusion is that I think that railpads, bunker and tunnels are more numerous with new blocs and that this way of selecting weapon can be still be enough for weapon diversity in Elite. But I insist on the importance of trying to find ways to improve things and to stay open minded about it. Someone said to avoid to touch what is working, but the +0, the walljumps, the quick reload has been addition brought on top of the existing mode. It is important for the ability to improve things.

[MuNgLo]

after these time of tests, I would suggest these changes for the 3.1

1. remove weapon selection by default of the mode, and keep it for players who would like to try it more (build maps, balance etc.)
2. make the railpad speed equal as a common railpad
3. reduce the quick ammo reload speed by 20%

My conclusion is that I think that railpads, bunker and tunnels are more numerous with new blocs and that this way of selecting weapon can be still be enough for weapon diversity in Elite. But I insist on the importance of trying to find ways to improve things and to stay open minded about it. Someone said to avoid to touch what is working, but the +0, the walljumps, the quick reload has been addition brought on top of the existing mode. It is important for the ability to improve things.

It is true that changes was needed and still are but you might wanna have a goal for it. The problem with beta 3 changes is that it totally changes the gameplay. Maybe not on lower level but with skilled player it really does.
Elite 2.1 was pretty good already when it comes to gameplay but it would be great if you at Nadeo had a stated goal for the gameplay. Not just add stuff to test with no regard to how it effects and changes the gameplay. That's how beta3 was delivered for many players I think.

If the weapon choice would be off by default it opens up a proper test for reloadmechanics. Personally I think reload is pretty fine as is but that reloadmechanic can be used to change 1v1 situations on pole to make them more fun. Basically give an defender on capturepoint (yes inside the area) a 50% reload on hit. It would have many different but subtle effects. Mostly positives I think.

Something that might be a problem is the changes in wj. After beta3 I've seen more people actually learning the 2.1 wj good enough to realize how nerfed the new wj is. Consistency is a good thing but taking away what for some is one of the more entertaining parts of the game is really bad. The beta3 wj should really be tweaked to allow for better movements like the old one but with a better concistency.
I would say I'm pretty bad at walljumping but I personally still feel like I took a rocket to the knee in beta3 movement.
It might end up that people rather stay on beta2.1 then having to give up some really fancy fun ways of attacking and defending.

However it goes I hope it will be good changes overall that don't remove the fun.

[Forgot10]

after these time of tests, I would suggest these changes for the 3.1

1. remove weapon selection by default of the mode, and keep it for players who would like to try it more (build maps, balance etc.)
2. make the railpad speed equal as a common railpad
3. reduce the quick ammo reload speed by 20%

My conclusion is that I think that railpads, bunker and tunnels are more numerous with new blocs and that this way of selecting weapon can be still be enough for weapon diversity in Elite. But I insist on the importance of trying to find ways to improve things and to stay open minded about it. Someone said to avoid to touch what is working, but the +0, the walljumps, the quick reload has been addition brought on top of the existing mode. It is important for the ability to improve things.

By the way, was rocket reload speed also decreased? I can't really play much lately, but when I do, it feels like rockets recharge ~30% slower than they used to in the past. It makes pole 1v1 against 3 armours really difficult, and basically means you can not spam shortly before the goal becomes capturable or afterwards.

I remember you telling me that you wanted +0 in this game to help attackers: like, you do some cool movement combos in the air, and rocket cancellation is needed to keep things fluid, give more room for manoeuvre and encourage the use daring and cool moves. Introduction of laser on defence, however, completely contradicts this ideology, because airborne = easy target, so you have to camp. Therefore I am glad we are reverting to classic rockets.
Also, with adjusted reload time of laser defence, it became extremely boring to play with it. Basically, it was no fun for both attacker and defender. Not to mention that however open minded we are in CMC, we just couldn't find people to do these laser tests (yes, we were willing to, even though not everyone, myself included, liked it), and we never could gather 6 of our solid players together.

Won't rocket cancellation delay be increased to 500 ms? I'm not complaining about how it works right now, but I would love to test it.

What about bouncing rockets?

And og og og, Nadeo!

[Hylis]

give more room for manoeuvre and encourage the use daring and cool moves

yes, this is one of the reason of the +0 for air actions

part of my choice of removing weapon choices by default was link to this kind of loss, but I think you still misunderstand the way I work. I think that weapon choices were a good additions for many reasons, and with some drawbacks on others. The goal was to find some ways to remove the drawbacks while keeping the good ones. I don't think we have looked enough, but I think I have other priorities at the moment than to develop many evolution to help this. It is not a path that is desired by expert players, and Elite is first and foremost for them, and spectators. Keeping the option will enable some players to test maps and matches if they want.

Thanks for your support and your try to help. I think that the debate started too much on balance, with players that have not tested enough. And this topic was first designed to remove the question of balance (this is why I asked for scores that never really arrived on the maps I suggested) so players may move on the questions of the game in itself, more than on the question of the balance. At least, it made some players to say that it was well balanced before :p

[sadzealot]

after these time of tests, I would suggest these changes for the 3.1

1. remove weapon selection by default of the mode, and keep it for players who would like to try it more (build maps, balance etc.)
2. make the railpad speed equal as a common railpad
3. reduce the quick ammo reload speed by 20%

My conclusion is that I think that railpads, bunker and tunnels are more numerous with new blocs and that this way of selecting weapon can be still be enough for weapon diversity in Elite. But I insist on the importance of trying to find ways to improve things and to stay open minded about it. Someone said to avoid to touch what is working, but the +0, the walljumps, the quick reload has been addition brought on top of the existing mode. It is important for the ability to improve things.

I have no problem with the bold statement at all, but the problem with beta3 was that it totally changed the gameplay of Elite (Or so it felt like).

+0 (after 400ms change) when introduced didn't change how Elite was played, neither did walljumps (maybe they forced defenders to play different positions because of where attacker could go). They just offered more variety in how it was played, which is a good thing. And Im pretty sure this is what you guys want as well, more variety.

Bounce rockets (when introduceed) was something different that gave defenders something extra and didn't change the overall gameplay of Elite. It just made it possible to shoot rockets around corners, and it's given us so many good times when we land those double/triple bounce rockets on unsuspecting attackers in games. I can't wait for you guys to reintroduce them back into the game (hopefully in a tweaked way, mostly so they're not affected by geometry of walls either, because that makes them random and hard to use properly. Maybe even a lower charging time but with a different drawback?)

This is how much fun bounce rockets can be - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4U-8S-hKdE

And I would highlight what Munglo said which I agree with

Elite 2.1 was pretty good already when it comes to gameplay but it would be great if you at Nadeo had a stated goal for the gameplay. Not just add stuff to test with no regard to how it effects and changes the gameplay. That's how beta3 was delivered for many players I think.