Maniaplanet Forum

Akbalder wrote:I would sign a petition to prohibit Unlimiter Tool.
Almost all the map done with it are bad...

Thanks man! I wasn't aware I made your life worse by doing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gprsx_UkOdE#t=5m58s
(Drow Outpost)

Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9_Mqy94eBM#t=1m06s
(Rally Leninskaya)

Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNtz17UiZ3o
(Lux City)

You should totally stop me from doing this because the world gets ever more dreadful with every new track like this.

Oh wait, I already quit because the unlimiter is no longer available so I can't do this anymore. I'm making Skyrim mods now.

EnaiSiaion wrote:...

self-promotion sucks

i didn't use the unlimiter yet and was still able to create interesting maps
however i would like to see the map making restrictions opened up somehow

steeffeen wrote:i didn't use the unlimiter yet and was still able to create interesting maps
however i would like to see the map making restrictions opened up somehow

absolutely right, I would like to see a expert editor where the blocks have not anymore a virtual boundary box around them in a first step.

hmmm,
- it is like u don´t build in features, bcs some ppl could have problems to understand how to use it.

- at the buggy looking part, u know, canyon have still buggy blocks?

- a badly blockmixed track can be a confusing experience for some players.!!:=)

- omg, if u give free energy to the world, some ppl could like this, not!

oh I forgot to tell a fact, the world works like this, it happens what some ppl want, not the most.

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but I wryly don't understand some of arguments. There are many authors in MX and they are building shity maps (even without unlimiter). And you know what is going on with those maps? Mostly nobody plays them because admins of playable servers don't place them in mappools.

I seen many maps (random from MX) and most of randomly chosen maps are just bad. Why? Not because of unlimiter or because there is no unlimiter. Because most of authors don't make good maps. But this don't mean that they will not start making good maps. That's why every player have access to editor. To give something new to game. Even on bad maps you can find something interesting (not very often but it's possible).

I was making speed maps (mostly with walls and loops). My few first maps was bad, because I wasn't excrescence enough to build good map. After I meet one great mapper and he explains me few basic things about building. I started to build with more awareness about what I doing on a map. Than I discovered unlimiter and possibilities that it gives to me to build maps for me was just perfect. After I start using unlimiter I made only one map without unlimiter for MTC, because it was one of the rule. This map for MTC with blockmix could be much better map in my opinion, more smooth. Now I stopped making maps because I know that I can't make exactly what I want, and I hope that unlimiter will be back again.

Unlimiter is just about to give more possibilities. If somebody will build map with using blockmix that will not mean that each admin have to place it on server. If map will be build bad, with bugs etc.... good admins will not place it in mappool. And this concerns to maps that was build with blockmix and without. So all arguments like "map can be bugged", "Almost all the map done with it are bad...", "a badly blockmixed track can be a confusing experience for some players" etc.... are just stupid. Map build with blockmix can be not bugged, can be very good one, and can be very readable for drivers etc... it only depends on the autor. Admins decide which maps players will play on servers.

It is quite long post sorry, I hope it is understandable, my English is not very good.

And again ! + 1 with all you said sayotoshi

Sayotoshi, I would say that your maps are ones that are extremely fun to drive, and really define an extremely fast style of tracks with great flow. You're a bit of a legend in TM2 among the fullspeed/fast drifting community.

But I would add that you are actually one of the many examples of using unlimiter irresponsibly and creating ugly mixes. Most of the tracks I've tried from you have ugly mixes with flickering textures. For example, I've seen that you sometimes mix CPs and boosters together which causes flickering on the ground. You probably don't think it's bad because you seem to focus mostly on the driving experience, which of course is very important. But, visually I think your maps can be very disconcerting. I'm a server owner who really doesn't like the idea of having your maps on my server, partly because of the style of course (a bit too fast for my server), but mostly because of these ugly mixes.

You're hardly alone in creating such mixes though. It's just an example, and it's something I had to point out after you made such a glowing post about mixing. If even an expert builder like yourself can fall victim to creating bad mixes, then what hope is there for new builders if such a tool was to end up in their hands?

I can certainly understand the wish to have more freedom in the editor. It might not hurt to open up the editor a bit more while still imposing limits on people being able to create ugly mixes.

But I really don't like people throwing around this argument about tracks that are good or bad to drive. I really think it has very little to do with tracks being good or bad to drive. Of course you can make a track worse to drive by using unlimiter, but you can make a track worse to drive by bad block placements without unlimiter. The reverse is also true, making a track better with or without unlimiter.

There's no denying that there will be good and bad tracks with or without unlimiter. So it's not really a good argument to make to block or allow the creation of an official unlimiter.

The real issues with having an official unlimiter is that it creates a new standard, and that everyone will be obliged to use it in order to be one of the expert builders. I know this from years of being around the TM community. People follow the trends and fads of the community. For instance, when people started using spacescapes for their TMX screenshots, everyone else started doing it too, and there's a period of 2 years or so that a LOT of people replaced their sky in their TMX screenshots with spacescapes. It's a silly example, but it demonstrates that people will follow what is "cool" and do it... many times without really thinking of the consequences.

And of course, the second issue is that it could cause the proliferation of ugly mixes in tracks to be much more widespread than they already are. To be honest, I'm not sure this is even a very good argument. Badly mixes tracks are already widespread. I see ugly mixes in so many tracks already, especially on Stadium servers. This is probably because unlimiter has been available for Stadium for much longer and seen more tracks built with it.

Of course, you would say, server owners should take responsibility for this and not load such maps onto their servers. But that's not the case with some servers. Take for instance my TestZone server. On that server I let any player load their track onto the server so that it can be tested by other players. This is a service to the community and to all track builders. Not all servers will have tightly curated content, nor do we wish them to. So in that case, it would be thrown back to the players to create tracks that are not full of ugly mixes.

But here's something that might surprise you. Some people actually prefer having limits in the editor. I'm one of them. Why? Well, I'd compare it with participating in the MTCs (Monthly Track Contests). The theme of the MTC usually places some restriction on the builder, whether it's building within a certain area, only using certain blocks, or achieving some goal like driving to the bottom of the map and back up again. These restrictions or requirements means that you have to find ways to be creative within the constraints of the editor and the current selection of blocks and within the given theme. It forces you to think outside the box and build in ways you might not have thought of building otherwise. Building without unlimiter requires a similar mindset. It requires you to think of creative ways to achieve the kind of track you want, instead of taking the easy way out. I'd say it's infinitely more satisfying to achieve a good track without unlimiter. It's like building a puzzle without using scissors. It's much more gratifying to find the correct placement of the puzzle piece than to snip off the edges and make it fit somewhere it was never meant to be.

As I said in my previous post. I'm not 100% against unlimiter. I've used it some myself, and I've seen it used in good ways on some tracks, but I think maybe people take it a little too far too often and don't give the vanilla editor sufficient chance. In my opinion, it's the truly expert builders who are able to build without it and find creative solutions to their track building ideas.

@ eyebo

"Sayotoshi, I would say ..... fullspeed/fast drifting community." - big thx for all those words

"Most of the tracks I've tried from you have ugly mixes with flickering textures." - yes, I don't like this also but it don't make any bugs for driving, CP and boost in one place just save place and allow to use better angles with less space. Generally I'm very bad with scenery, it's my weakest point in map building. If something don't look good but don't make bugs and don't mislead driver and it's good for map flow I will use it. And I understand that my maps are specific and not many ppl will like to drive them, but this refers to each map, matter of taste.

"If even an expert builder like yourself can fall victim to creating bad mixes, then what hope is there for new builders if such a tool was to end up in their hands?" - For me bad mix is when it cause bugs and random things for car (not only blockmix but generally map build). Many ppl use blockmix to make map "harder" or "weirder" or more "confusing". Those are examples of bad using blockmix for me, but I seen many maps that was bad because bad speed for jump or for a turn or was very confusing and was build without blockmix. Well there wasn't "flickering textures" but is that mean that map is better? I was using unlimiter to make map more smooth more readable for driver, now I can't.

"There's no denying that there will be good and bad tracks with or without unlimiter. So it's not really a good argument to make to block or allow the creation of an official unlimiter." - No, this is argument to allow. If "there will be good and bad tracks with or without unlimiter" so why block unlimiter by saying that it cause bad maps??? For me it don't have to be build directly in to game, Nadeo can publish it exactly like previous unlimiter, why not? If one person could do it for Nadeo it should be a piece of cake.

"But here's something that might surprise you. Some people actually prefer having limits in the editor. I'm one of them. Why? Well, I'd compare it with participating in the MTCs (Monthly Track Contests). The theme of the MTC usually places some restriction on the builder, whether it's building within a certain area, only using certain blocks, or achieving some goal like driving to the bottom of the map and back up again." - Those restrictions will be same for all participants even if you allow everybody to use blockmix. For me it will make competition more interesting, more possibilities to be surprised by map makers.

"It's much more gratifying to find the correct placement of the puzzle piece than to snip off the edges and make it fit somewhere it was never meant to be." - I understand this point of view, and for me the best map I ever drive was made without blockmix. Thats why I take part in one MTC, it was very challenging for me to create map in my style but without unlimiter. I didn't take part in next one because for me maps with 2 alternative routs are not interesting not because building map without unlimiter is hard. For me generally creating a map is hard work, building, testing, deleting, building, testing, etc... many hours of work.

"I think maybe people take it a little too far too often" - I think that maybe people to little and not too often taking time to create good map. That's is why most of bad maps are released. Authors are to lazy to test maps and want to finish they work quick. Maybe unlimiter make this kind of approach to map building easier. Well we are not live in perfect world and always there will be bad things, but if we can have more freedom that don't make any harm ("There's no denying that there will be good and bad tracks with or without unlimiter") we should use it.

eyebo wrote:It's like building a puzzle without using scissors.

Just wonderful.

sayotoshi wrote:If something don't look good but don't make bugs and don't mislead driver and it's good for map flow I will use it.

But flickering textures are just so ugly that they ruin the whole gaming experience. They make my eyes bleed, and i think i'm one among a lot. And it's not the only concern we face with unlimiter maps.

sayotoshi wrote:And I understand that my maps are specific and not many ppl will like to drive them, but this refers to each map, matter of taste.

That's why the full unlimiter maps should remain a school among others. And not the standard.

sayotoshi wrote:For me bad mix is when it cause bugs and random things for car (not only blockmix but generally map build). Many ppl use blockmix to make map "harder" or "weirder" or more "confusing". Those are examples of bad using blockmix for me, but I seen many maps that was bad because bad speed for jump or for a turn or was very confusing and was build without blockmix. Well there wasn't "flickering textures" but is that mean that map is better? I was using unlimiter to make map more smooth more readable for driver, now I can't.

I don't see why we should treat in a different way the flickering textures and the physical bugs: both are a serious threat to the quality of the gaming experience. And there are lots of ways to make smooth maps, with or without unlimiter.

sayotoshi wrote:For me it don't have to be build directly in to game, Nadeo can publish it exactly like previous unlimiter, why not?

It could be a good compromise, better than including unlimiter as a core feature of the game.

Sayotoshi, thanks for replying to the points I made. Even if I disagree with some things, much of what you said is also true. And as Hylis has eluded to... it's not so important about who is "right" or "wrong", it's more about hearing how different people feel about it. They can consider our feelings about it and find the best solution for everyone.

Romain, you share my feelings exactly.

The bottom line is that the cat is out of the bag. Mixed tracks are here to say. Some look great, some look ugly. Some are great to drive, some aren't. If Nadeo doesn't make an official unlimiter (integrated or external) or open up the possibility somehow, then a 3rd party will do it again eventually... be it arc_ or someone else.

We just have to deal with the results as best we can. Who knows, it could be great.