The worlds First Tournament in Trackmania 2

[xis101]

Let´s see it realistic. How many players does this sponsor/money thing concern? 100-200 players? How much does Nadeo profit by this? Nothing more now. In the past the brand TM became more famous by TMN(F) (and that was its only reason to exist in an economic point of view), but now after TM has a certain degree of popularity there are no reasons to put even more money in TMNF. That´s why there is no TMNF tournament with prize money at dreamhack. If you had to buy TMNF it would make sense. But that isn´t the case, so the logical step is to push TM2.
All in all a rational behavior of Ubisoft/Nadeo.

[Knutselmaaster]

just to make some closure here: no i don't hate TM2 and i don't have anything against it if it becomes an esports game either. what im against is the idea to try and forcefully make it an esports game by holding and sponsoring these kind of events. because i think it only hurts the already existing established TMNF community and nothing good is going to come out of it since i don't believe TM2 will become an esports game anyway. it will just cause alot of confusion for sponsors teams and events. it's not about whether they should promote their game or not, it's about how they are doing it. and i think they are doing it wrong.

and yes, im also worried about what will happen with TMNF. because ultimately it's up to Florent and nadeo what they wanna do with it. they can easily just close it down or restrict it even further with freezone to force people to play and buy TM2. because let's face it, Nations is a very popular game, and even with freezone the numbers haven't dropped that much. so i just think that would be a huge shame, because there's a legacy for this game. we got 5 different world champions, we got so much history. i just don't want to see that going away. i realize that Florent and Nadeo can do whatever they want because it's their franschise and yeah they make the decision. but that doesn't mean i will be happy about it. because like ive said, Trackmania is really divided, it's the people that expect new environments; TMO, TMS, that's how Trackmania started, and there's TMNF which is very different from that. imo it's a stand alone game, where as the other envs are just bonus stuff. and yeah it's obvious that Nadeo have gone back to their roots with TM2 and that's probably to be expected. but it's like Korre said tho: don't let your babies die =) notice the plural form.

but anyway, time will tell what will happen.

Here we go, a nice and calm explanation of your thoughts, without any insults.
That's a lot better, please keep this discussion like that.
There is no problem at all in expressing yourself, nor in having an opinion that is not the same as other people, but please keep it civilised.

Now, about the event, your opinion is that they should have had TMN there too, and that i can understand, as it is "your" sport.
Who knows maybe they tried to get both games there, but the organisation asked Nadeo to make a choice as there was no room for two TM tournaments.
From a commercial point of view it is of course more understandable that they chose TM².
Not to forget that they are eager to show their new baby to the public, see how reactions are and betatest the game in a massive event, to be able to adapt it to be an even better e-sports game before the release.
I agree that they cannot force a game to be loved by the e-sports community by pushing it, but they certainly can try to make it loved by letting the community test it, look and listen what they find and adapting the game to fit the communities wishes.
That is something that not many developers do (if there are any) and should be praised in my opinion.

[haenry]

what im against is the idea to try and forcefully make it an esports game by holding and sponsoring these kind of events.

They don't make this event with the intention to "forcefully make it an esports game". NAdeo and ubi just want to announce it. Don't mix these 2 things up

because i think it only hurts the already existing established TMNF community and nothing good is going to come out of it since i don't believe TM2 will become an esports game anyway.

In which way should a new game (that has nothing to do with TMNF), hurt TMNF? I don't get it. sry..
And don't make random guesses, that TM2 won't become an esport game. You cannot comment on a game you don't know.
And if you are really right, then you have nothing to worry because TM2 cannot replace TMNF then. If the game is not good for esport, money doesn't help

it will just cause alot of confusion for sponsors teams and events.

I cannot see anything causing confusion. Proof that...

it's not about whether they should promote their game or not, it's about how they are doing it. and i think they are doing it wrong.

Yeah you can think what you want. Nadeo and ubi choose the best way they can find. They won't care about a single opinion of any random guy. Yeah it's your opinion, but you don't need to terrorize us with it

[konte]

Hmm... those 10 pages didn't tell me a lot, a constructive discussion looks a bit different.
Everything I noticed was that Frostbeule apparently realised over the last years that he doesn't agree often with Hylis anyway and so he started insulting to get at least some attention.

You know that you are in a forum only with TMUF players and that they all (or at least the most of them) expect TM2 it to be a great successor, Frostbeule, it's not a good idea to have an attitude like this:
[quote=FrostBeule]but im pretty convinced that i know alot more about esports than Florent, and that I also know more about what's best for esports than Florent.[/quote]
when discussing with Hylis or with other players. If you're like "I know more than you and my oppinion is the only right anyway" and "You are on the TMUF side of life and can't judge esports anyway", well, then ... there's no discussion. Then this is not a discussion. Then you could have left your comment here, but then I wonder why this thread has 10 pages already.

I don't know whether TM2 has chances to become an esport game or not, I don't want to judge it. But if you want to discuss with other players, you have to come down on the same level as they are. Or you argue by mentioning what you experienced over the years in the esports scene, to explain why in detail you know more about esports than Florent or us.
If neither of these possibilities are an option for you, well, then ... you already left your comment, I think it was on page 1.

[Knutselmaaster]

Please step off of the personal attacks.
Frostbeule's last reaction was nice and constructive, let's all do the same now.

[FrostBeule]

what im against is the idea to try and forcefully make it an esports game by holding and sponsoring these kind of events.

They don't make this event with the intention to "forcefully make it an esports game". NAdeo and ubi just want to announce it. Don't mix these 2 things up

well, im not so sure about that. you know they aren't just showing the game off at dreamhack, they are also hosting a tournament with prize money and that will be played in the dreamarena which you could say is the absolute core of swedish (if not the whole western) esports infront of the already established esports audience. why would they do that unless they didn't wanna make the game an esports game forcefully?

anyway, you guys are right, i did get too frustrated and from that came alot of negativity i shouldn't have written. ive tried to discuss with Florent for many years, but it seems like we can never come to a common ground, because our fundamentals are just so different from each other, and from that i've built up alot of frustration. ill try to work on handling that better in the future =)

[Trackmaniack]

Simple. Because they want to test their game in front of a core of players that are hardcore gamers--they're sorta like the litmus test for the rest of us. If the eSports crowd is psyched about TM2, regardless if they're excited about it in an eSports fashion or not, then they can be pretty sure the game will do well. If the people at this tourney are all like "Meh," then they might be a little worried about the success of their new baby.

And, as an aside note: Since when has there been a serious eSport tourney -without- prize money? Come on.

[Hylis]

If Canyon is an environment to be played in eSport for TrackMania, cool. And the more it is played, the better.
If Stadium is an environment to be played in eSport for TrackMania, cool. And the more it is played, the better.

Stadium was not scheduled at the Dreamhack and was not going to be. So, this would quite strange to say that TrackMania should be totally absent because of it. Why not hope for another racing game to be there instead by the way?

And if there is an opportunity to make a tournament, it seems better to make it on the upcoming TrackMania. Not only for marketing but also because the game is a paying one. Like I said earlier, Nations is free, it has it's advantage, but being a priced product can also have some. Starcarft 1 and 2 are paying games.

Our effort for Stadium is by making it free, our effort on Canyon is on having a priced product.

If the focus was on only one eSport scene on TrackMania, I believe that Stadium to be even more healthy. I don't say that playing 8 environments should be the main discipline, even if a big tournament like this can contribute to the world ranking of TrackMania, especially with different players from teams. Maybe that Stadium should account for a great majority of the points earned in the world TrackMania leader board, and to have the most prestigious "single environment" challenge like Roland Garros or Wimbledon.

I also strongly believe that the mappers, the video makers, the organisers, the programmers and many other key people in eSport as well would rather support this vision than making a split. And they are as much part of eSport than racers. You can replace the #1 by a #2, but it is more difficult to replace a world cup by another, a lan admin or the leader of a highly fun competitions site.

As far as supporting eSport for Canyon, I have done a hundred times more already for Stadium and I am even continuing to do it by keeping it free and doing other things. So, if people would ask us to be fair, they should either ask for Canyon to be free in order to help eSport of it, make Stadium to be cost something.

We have supported eSport since years and I intend to continu to do it.
If you read this kind of article, I think it is also obvious:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/05/27/mad-mad-world/

We like eSport,
Florent


Meanwhile, there is still this:

time after time you've proven that you are clueless when it comes to define a good esport.

the esports community mainly consists of very young people with very low morals.

that's just stupid thinking. perhaps you are a megalomaniac or something?

you should just focus all things esports on just stadium. i think that's best =) or perhaps not focus on esports at all, and just let us do our thing.

i know alot more about esports than Florent, and that I also know more about what's best for esports than Florent.

ive tried to discuss with Florent for many years, but it seems like we can never come to a common ground

Hoping for a common ground here?

[wiidesire-2]

Hylis with Frostbeule it's like talking against a wall.

I completely agree to your statement and I also know that you have long enough experience for esport that you can make the right decision

but frostbeule will quote every sentence from you now and will find some idiot things, where nobody is interested in ( except maybe 10 people) something against...

waisting your time for 1 person, who is totally against Trackmania Canyon ( blabla... he's not against, he's just against esport ...) is useless. Your first statement for this person was enough, it would only make sence to make so many statements when like 50% of all gamers thinks like him, then it would make sence to discuss it...

If Frostbeule is against, then he shouldn't insult anybody ( community members or developers), I also don''t understand what's frostbeuls purpose? if he don't like what's going on, than he can leave this community and esport, nobody forced him to stay.

Hylis please just concentrate on Maniaplanet ( I love your support, but you don't need to answer at everything), that's now at the moment the most important thing in my opinion. ( okay some questions will come after the e3 expo presentation) , but right at the moment , I don't think that you have to make any statements here( and when you do then just make 1 statement and any insults -> ban ), because all questions can be answered by the community. (of course which are already known)

Sincerely,

Max ( that should be no offence to you Hylis or something)

[FrostBeule]

If Canyon is an environment to be played in eSport for TrackMania, cool. And the more it is played, the better.
If Stadium is an environment to be played in eSport for TrackMania, cool. And the more it is played, the better.

Stadium was not scheduled at the Dreamhack and was not going to be. So, this would quite strange to say that TrackMania should be totally absent because of it. Why not hope for another racing game to be there instead by the way?

And if there is an opportunity to make a tournament, it seems better to make it on the upcoming TrackMania. Not only for marketing but also because the game is a paying one. Like I said earlier, Nations is free, it has it's advantage, but being a priced product can also have some. Starcarft 1 and 2 are paying games.

Our effort for Stadium is by making it free, our effort on Canyon is on having a priced product.

If the focus was on only one eSport scene on TrackMania, I believe that Stadium to be even more healthy. I don't say that playing 8 environments should be the main discipline, even if a big tournament like this can contribute to the world ranking of TrackMania, especially with different players from teams. Maybe that Stadium should account for a great majority of the points earned in the world TrackMania leader board, and to have the most prestigious "single environment" challenge like Roland Garros or Wimbledon.

I also strongly believe that the mappers, the video makers, the organisers, the programmers and many other key people in eSport as well would rather support this vision than making a split. And they are as much part of eSport than racers. You can replace the #1 by a #2, but it is more difficult to replace a world cup by another, a lan admin or the leader of a highly fun competitions site.

As far as supporting eSport for Canyon, I have done a hundred times more already for Stadium and I am even continuing to do it by keeping it free and doing other things. So, if people would ask us to be fair, they should either ask for Canyon to be free in order to help eSport of it, make Stadium to be cost something.

We have supported eSport since years and I intend to continu to do it.
If you read this kind of article, I think it is also obvious:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/05/27/mad-mad-world/

We like eSport,
Florent


Meanwhile, there is still this:

time after time you've proven that you are clueless when it comes to define a good esport.

the esports community mainly consists of very young people with very low morals.

that's just stupid thinking. perhaps you are a megalomaniac or something?

you should just focus all things esports on just stadium. i think that's best =) or perhaps not focus on esports at all, and just let us do our thing.

i know alot more about esports than Florent, and that I also know more about what's best for esports than Florent.

ive tried to discuss with Florent for many years, but it seems like we can never come to a common ground

Hoping for a common ground here?

some of those quotes are things i shouldn't have written. but not all of them =) anyway you make it look like im the villain here, when you've been equally harsh against me. who started it all? i dunno. i guess my point is that if you really care about esports, you should actually listen to what the esports community (yes im part of it) says. that's what blizzard does for SC2 for example, and that's why i continue to reach out to you because i naively think that we someday will come to a common ground. of course i think it's stupid that we both throw insults at each other. we should stop with that.

anyway im tired of discussing this matter. we will just see what happens with esports and trackmania. hopefully it will turn out good for everyone. all i can say is that don't share the same vision as you =) and that's not an insult.