[Thoughts]The good things about B3

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andrewcandoall
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[Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by andrewcandoall » 02 Aug 2013, 11:33

It does have some redeemable attributes in my opinion that should be retained in whatever they go with.
  • Super Wall Jump off of Red Blocks
  • Fast Reload after killing target is more rewarding of good aim
  • Ability to kill more than one target
There are some things that aren't a big deal
  • New micro jump on the latest version is very playable. Many North American teams have begun playing with it and no one has complained. You don't leave the ground when done properly (So you aren't an easy target whenever you want to use stamina).
The main issue from what I can see is:
  • Wall Jumps
Aside from that the settings are just fine

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dreammyw0w
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by dreammyw0w » 02 Aug 2013, 12:16

good post mate :thumbsup:
I never said B2 could not evolve btw.
Im also a fan of the multilaser and this could be added to B2. For me personally the current B3 isnt really a good solution.
I like the microjumps from B2 too much.

Anyways , imo , you shouldnt have created a new thread. The feedback you will get here is also usable in my thread.

Hylis
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by Hylis » 02 Aug 2013, 13:29

good summary of what I see as important points andrewcandoall

For walljump, I know the new ones are too limited, but unfortunately, we had to remove the big bugs of the random B2 version.

One of the way to bring the sensation of choice you would seek would be to provide additionnal micro air control power from some sort of perma-bonus. And maybe only to the attacker to create asymetric moving area (more possibilities in mapping) and would still enable map making to avoid to take into account a too wide area of possibilities in each maps, and from all modes.

Since we intend to try to add thinkgs solidely, we have to remove the weakest parts along the way. Hope you understand.

Joader
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by Joader » 02 Aug 2013, 13:47

the biggest problem with the b3 is the fast reload laser after a hit. If that gets taken out its still worse than b2 buzt at least playable to some extent

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dreammyw0w
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by dreammyw0w » 02 Aug 2013, 13:50

I clearly can read here that even the new system is not ready.
So why change to B3 now and maybe in the future again & again :/

tcq
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by tcq » 02 Aug 2013, 14:36

Just my try to understand all of this discussion B2 vs B3 :) Correct me when I'm wrong.
dreammyw0w wrote:I clearly can read here that even the new system is not ready.
So why change to B3 now and maybe in the future again & again :/
I haven't played the game during this last year, but all of this B2 vs B3 discussion (followed it since the B3 was introduced) is a little bit senseless in my opinion. Did you never saw a game that got patches that changed the game play? Happens most often with RPGs or strategical games if specific units are either over or under powered.
For me it seems to be the same with SM. There was the change with the micro jump, then the wall jump followed up with addition of new blocks to deepen the game play (e.g. the slide ways, the grapple hook and this arrow thing of weapon). Players adapt to this changes and everything is working. Of course, if the changes are really bad than I can understand this criticism.
What I understood so far was that the micro jump increased the game speed, while being hard to learn. Due to removal of it with B3 it reduced the game speed and a lot of players that did not enjoy it as they prefer a faster game play (e.g. old Quake/Unreal players). After some discussions the micro jump got somehow reintroduced, but not being a real micro jump any more. Afterwards, this jump was again changed by adding more defined reaction levels and corresponding height jump as well as a changed minimal jump height to make it feel more like B2, but still being more user friendly, less hardware dependent and to prevent macro abuse?

So can I summarise it as, B2 game play is faster than B3 (old version), but the new updated B3 version closed in on this and the wall jumps in B3 are more limited than in B2?

Overall, what I don't understand with this whole discussion is, why people complain and make so much demands without the least willingness to accept changes which might be great in the long run? How do you know if they will be good in the long run? You simply don't know, but by denying them from the beginning there is no change of an evolution. If Hylis said, the wall jumps did not work due to the reasons he listed and they need to be changed to reduce randomness, then why do all people come back at it if there is obvious no way that it will be changed? Why not concentrate on new important things?
On example is the start trick that was discovered during the TM2 canyon beta. You were able to press the brake during the countdown to give the car a start acceleration which could gave you, depending on your timing up to 0.1 seconds in the first meters. Sadly, there was no way to tell if you got this boost or not before you reached the first CP and therefore a really annoying random game experience. It got removed and everyone adapted to the new settings. Maybe this is a thing with the TM community and the FPS community, which mostly consist out of FPS players coming from foreign games and a minority of TM players, is simply not used to accept that sometimes things need to change. Probably an effect of the "we want it now" generation. I'm by now way accusing here, just dropping some thoughts.
The whole problem with this whole discussion is, as I see it, that mostly people join this forum being demanding, aggressive and use a bad language and simply state "you suck, do it like we want it". There are some people that try to argument and find a solution to it. but this one are mostly lost in the small "flamewars" started by certain type of people. If I would be a developer, I would find it very hard to restrain myself :)

Why not try to be a little bit more friendly to each other and provide solutions or at least a will for aim orientated discussion and be open for changes. Will help to enlighten the atmosphere here on the forum as well as the contact with the developers who are more likely to listen to you if you formulate it nicely. And remember, the loudest person is not always the person that is right.

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dreammyw0w
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by dreammyw0w » 02 Aug 2013, 15:21

B3 is since the last patch closer to B2.
I agree.

Also games evolve.
I agree.

If its a bad change people complain.
I agree

Dont tell me i didnt play both settings. Im probably the most active player around & I tested every mode hundreds of hours. Im always the first to test new updates & I always leave my feedback here in a polite way on the forums.

Now if something is bad, im also the first to share it.
Besides my topic was mostly about microjumps. I'd like it very much if it wouldnt change.
This doesnt mean i dont like other stuff from B3.

I like the multilaser ( maybe its luck & not skill , but it will almost never happen. )
And I dont really mind the new walljumping that much :)


Also, there arent a lot of big tournaments anymore. Only ESWC...
Now for the last year we have been playing B2... ( as a direct training for ESWC ) and without anyyyyy notice they forced ESWC to use B3. That really hurt :)

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UrinStein
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by UrinStein » 02 Aug 2013, 15:28

The comparison with RPGs and strategic games is a bit weak.
In WoW abilities may get nerfed every month but in those games in PvP-Battles every player is playing another 'Class' so classes have to be made equally strong to make it fair.

In Shootmania the only occasion for that kind of nerf would be Siege where people can choose their weapon and there are many complaints about Nuclei being overpowered.
In most gamemodes however everyone has the same weapon and the same movement or the attacker and defender roles rotate so it is fair in the end.

The current diskussion is rather about the amount of possibilities EVERYONE has. Minijumps you just have to learn and Walljumps with more possibilities but slightly random outcomes?
In the end the question of the "Skill Ceiling" and the direction Shootmania is going to take regarding it is what is mostly discussed here. Do we want a game with more possibilities, more tricks and things that want to be practised and mastered or do we want a game in which new players do not have too much they need to catch up on?

If you do not play Shootmania, I do not think this discussion is interesting for you tcq.


Btw, I would prefer a game which will keep me interested for a longer time because theere are still things to learn and explore. Making it so simple that people will 'beat the game' in a year of playing is not the direction I would like to see.

The new 350ms jump is not that bad in the end even though I prefered the old 200ms jump.
Last edited by UrinStein on 02 Aug 2013, 15:33, edited 1 time in total.
kadaz wrote:> That's where I disagree, cause the truth is, the truth is, weather you agree to disagree or not with liking it.
> I know I speak intelligent English

Hylis
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by Hylis » 02 Aug 2013, 15:33

dreammyw0w wrote:Now for the last year we have been playing B2... ( as a direct training for ESCW ) and without anyyyyy notice they forced ESWC to use B3. That really hurt :)
hey hey, you said that you played the most, so you have the lead :mrgreen:

nan, just to be more light than the insulting people ^_^

And it's better to know now than with an update. I have kept beta 2 for "ongoing tournaments" Looking at players reaction, I doubt it would have changed by itself, while the development is moving forward. We may have to create a current version of the gameplay if we want to further change the current gameplay into something better (more solid or more fun, or both in best cases)

But the logic is that the future will always be with the last gameplay, which can suffer some hick ups, rollbacks, experiments etc. But there has to be a time to switch to the new one. All invited players will be on the latest gameplay.

We have designed the Elite Exp system to test a gameplay without imposing it. It was not working: pros where training on the current one and wide audience would not care go there to test. So, we have to make this current system, for the best of the future of the game.

MuNgLo
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Re: [Thoughts]The good things about B3

Post by MuNgLo » 02 Aug 2013, 15:52

Hylis wrote:For walljump, I know the new ones are too limited
Next time someone talks to you about wj, start with that. And there are lots of things that can be used to control the wj. Most notable is angle of aim.


OT: It still have support from devs but that laserreloadbonus and multihit should be optional via settings at least. Both are pushing the game even more to defensive boring gameplay in Elite.

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