Maniaplanet Forum

Hello Shootmania folks,

For a couple months, I was playing the official shootmania game mode called ''Elite''. I decided to take a try in the ''esl scene'', so I chosed Elite, because it is considered as "the ESL mode" of Shootmania. Joust was officially meant to be the second esl mode, as I've read somewhere, but the playerbase is very limited and never grew up, so Elite was the only choice to make. My best rank was around ~800 and I've never been in any serious team nor being part in any cups or tournaments.

I stopped playing Elite for nearly a half year now, because I simply don't enjoy it. My hope was that the ''fun'' will come up after I play this for a couple weeks, but it didn't happen. It is easy to explain:

Personally, I don't see any sense in the whole mode or how it works.
The question arises: What makes Elite so interesting/popular? Why it is considered as ''the ESL mode of Shootmania''?

Basically, there is one attacker and three defenders. The defenders are just hiding and shooting at the enemy from their hide-spot. Sometimes, they move to a next spot and shoot from there. I know, it totally depends on the map and in some cases it is absolutely the opposite of what I just mentioned. But, to exxagerate it a bit: The whole concept of Elite is just ''hiding & shooting''. In my opinion, there is no deep strategy in the game mechanic.

If a mode shall be regarded as a ''ESL mode'', it should be challenging, exciting, complex, full of different ways to win the game, unexpecting turning points, requiring to hammer out a plan as a team etc. I know, the first rule of Maniaplanet and Shootmania is ''to create simple games'', but sometimes simple games/modes doesn't necessarily mean ''good''

What do you think?



Greetings,
Soprah

P.S.: This topic is not intented to be offensive in any way. Just to be constructive feedback

Have you looked somes videos or somes replays of pro players of Elite ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV9oHVby2I0
Elite isn't just "hiding and shooting" i think. You must play with your enemy and sometimes invit him to make a fault to eliminate him.

After the Open Bêta of ShootMania, i had only the right to play Elite or Royal because i didn't buy ShootMania. In first, i tried Elite, but like you, i hated this gamemode. So i tried Royal and i played only this gamemode for a few months and after i retried to play Elite last July and i lost all my round but i continue to play. I don't know why ^^ i think maybe it's because i've better mastered the game.

Maybe you should persist and try again to play Elite

It's not the best gamemode of the world but it's a good gamemode.

[Sorry for my bad English, I wrote this quickly :s]

That's exactly what I always say about Elite, Soprah.^^
I've always found it boring and static.
I'm no Elite expert and I've watched maybe three matches in streams or an Youtube but still I don't think it's that hard to understand what the core of the gameplay is.


The Defense Team will in the beginning find very defensive positions on the map only to show themselves every now and then for a millisecond to shoot some rocket spam. This is basically it for the first 30s. Since the Attacker has the instagib weapon, you will rarely see the defending team being proactive. All they'll do is making the Attacker's life as hard as they can by hiding and spamming so he can hopefully not get into advantageous positions or even kill a Defender. When the attacker shoots the Defenders will be more aggressive for 2s but then hide again.

The next 15s though are more crucial as the Defenders will have to start to work their way back to the pole without exposing themselves to the laser. Yes this part of the game requires good timing and teamwork by the Defenders as your teammates need to keep the Attacker busy while you're rotating.

The last 15s, as nerve-recking as they may be, are again just hiding behind/around the pole and spamming, waiting for the Attacker to miss a shot so one can go for a double tap.

All in all, Defending in Elite is boring and uninteresting.


Attacking on the other hand is a lot better.
Since the Defenders aren't a huge threat for the Attacker even when standing wide open he will be moving a lot, maybe showing off some tricks, and be creative while trying to make the Defenders break cover. He has three different targets to choose from, so if it's not going so well over here, one can quickly retreat and look for another good position. The good amount of spam will punish slow reaction and a lack of awareness though.
Obviously, attacking is the interesting side of Elite. But what I really don't like about it, is that the creative part of the gameplay is put into the hand of a single person. It's no secret that a team of three can get a lot more creative with maneuvers than one can alone.


All this makes Elite a boring gamemode for me.
1/2 of the gameplay is defending which is very static and discourages being proactive.
1/3 of the gameplay is watching your teammates attacking.
1/6 of the gameplay is attacking, which is fun for sure, but it lacks any teamplay.



But Soprah, you were also asking why Elite has become this ultimate ESL gamemode of Shootmania and I think, it's a great ESL gamemode for the same reasons, that I don't like it for as the casual gamer that I am.^^

The keyword here is spectator friendly. When you play, you are the Attacker 1/6 of the time. But when spectating you spectate the Attacker 100% of the time. This is simply perfect for streaming.

The Attacker is the driving force of the gamemode. If the Attacker doesn't play aggressively nothing will happen at all. The Defender will mostly stay under cover as good as they can. So naturally, if you want to know what happens on the map and why, you only need to see what the Attacker does. Every hit being dealt is linked to him as well. Either he isb eing hit or he is hitting.
So not only the creative and game controlling part but also all the information you need, to understand the match, is packed into this one player. As a result a Elite match is much more easy and fun to watch than... Siege or whatever.


If you watched a livestream of a Siege or Heroes match, which are both just 5on5 Elite with some (really small) twists here and there, you wouldn't be able to comprehend everything that's happending, since the will alway be 5 1on1 fights at the same time.
A good spectator mode at least needs one element that the whole game is evolving around. In Elite it's the Attacker.


I wish people would try out Speedball. It's not only fast paced and tactic-heavy, it's also fairly watchable, since you only need to see what the ball/ball carrier and the people around do, just like in every other ball game.


Edit:
I forgot: Elite had a dedicated fanbase from the beginning because it was advertised as the competetive game mode.
People who wanted to play in teams against teams could only play Elite, at least in the beginning.
People who play more casually tend to play many gamemodes therefore not popularising one sepcific mode while most Elite players play Elite only.
The Free Accounts which could only play Royal and Elite did the rest. Elite is the only mode with a big dedicated player base.
It'll probably never change and does not just have to do with how the gamemode works.

I'm totally agree with you. I play elite sometimes with my friends, but I can't understand how it is so "popular". Yeah it's nice for spectators, but as UrinStein said, defending is boring imo.

UrinStein wrote:I wish people would try out Speedball. It's not only fast paced and tactic-heavy, it's also fairly watchable, since you only need to see what the ball/ball carrier and the people around do, just like in every other ball game.

Exactly ! Speedball is imo (again) something that I prefer to watch as a spectator. Yes, this gamemode is harder to understand at start, but when played, it's one of the best gamemode ever created

Teamplay is a lot more important in speedball than in elite and the feeling from doing a long or winning pass is pretty nice. I feel a lot more pressure when playing this gamemode.
Also, it can be a competitive gamemode while remaining a really fun one

UrinStein wrote:I wish people would try out Speedball.

Same for me. This gamemode lacks of player. I hope that next ManiaPlanet update will help for this gamemode (with the title pack demo).

P.S. This is my favorite gamemode

Edit : Most elite players won't try other gamemode just because they are not the "official esport gamemode" and this is bad

Here's my opinion on the matter (crap I wrote a lot, sorry) - As ShootMania is, Elite is simplistic gamemode, you have an easy goal in mind whether you are defending or attacking while being hard to master.

Let me explain why to those unaware even though, whats coming, seems to be a tutorial on the whole game and you probably already know it.

Aim & ammo preservation is essential, even when pre-firing (or spamming you guys like to call it).

Defense: Of most of the round, you and your team needs to know where the attacker is, I wont bother explaining this thoroughly but as you know, getting out of cover is dangerous and your peaks need to be damn fast. With this in mind you should be able to spot the target and help your team figure out the behavior of the atk (which is completely map dependent), when the attacker is close to a defender (which happens more than you think), you have to move in a way to throw the atk off and make yourself hard to hit while also trying to hit the atk yourself. All this could be happening in seconds while your teammates can choose to come to aid.

Attack:Throughout the round, as atk you will have constant prefire on your location, your job is to move fast and quietly as possible while making it hard for defense to know your location. Shooting/missing will only reveal your position and allow defense to pre-fire more and have a good peak on you while trying to figure you out. When close combat (yes map environment dependent as well), atk needs to surprise the defense while making their target easier to hit.

Movement / Environment
Well I got to say this is a huge part to elite, once you learned how to play and have some experience, the only way to get better is to improve your movement. Wall jumping is great and dynamic, using this mechanic allows you to move around faster or simply get a good peak / pop-shot on the enemy. Using a jumpad may be great for a boost, but its loud, predictable and anyone can use one. Want to build your map with a jumppad to take any player to a higher stronger attacking route? well if you design that part in a way its obstically walljumpable, then it's far rewarding to the player and more enjoyable while being challenging if defense are near as you can do things differently. Jumpads don't really allow much dynamic play tbh and its quite uninteresting. Maps are great when they allow you to be a bit sneaky on the defense and surprise them (although some mappers do take this way too far and create a route dedicated to it which uses half of the time of the round). boooriing
If a player is a master of movement and speed around an elite map, they can gain any control they want and should be able to outsmart the defending team and take them out.

When I was playing in a team, the most interesting part was noticing our mistakes and how the enemy team behaves on different situations around the map and how we play as a team or on a 1on1 situation, once you get the picture you realize that when maps are designed extremely differently with new personalities, the environment changes how players behave. That's one reason why high level teams prefer to stick with maps they know now, which also means mappers need to work their ass off to impress the average and high level player, which is awesome because it promotes more creativity in both tactics, flow and 'good looks' to a degree in the map-building business.


I don't think there is much wrong with the gamemode itself, its simplicity is what it is while new maps give something new. Yeah other 'newer' gametypes can easily stomp elite in more depth in strategy and skills, but elite has been around for longer and still has the larger playerbase which gives it the edge amongst others. You can also see its a very developed gamemode, to the point when the maps matter so much to the gameplay, especially now when its still pretty hard to build a better more favorable competitive map than the current old ones (Spitfire, Rust, Paladin 2k13 & Collided v2)

From what I've learned in elite playing at a high level (some time ago), watching and learning from the highest level teams and from learning as much as possible in elite mapbuilding on what the needs are. I enjoy playing far more than I used to, however I now rather enjoy playing new built custom maps made by the community as the official standard maps that come with elite today, can get boring unless you are in a team in training. If not, play elite in a custom map server and I promise you will enjoy it far more, especially playing on maps made by yourself or by friends.

If custom maps take off better than now and if we have a list of maps with the highest rating from votes ingame on all servers, I am sure we can come up with an awesome fun map pool that's non-competitive. But then again they might just be as competitive, nobody knows what the future holds.

It tests individual skill and team skill in the same game mode. Its unique and interesting and there is lots of strategy behind it. I was like you and stopped playing it for 6 months almost exactly, then recently something clicked and I perform well and really enjoy a tough game. There is nothing like being tied 21-21, several rounds into overtime and the intensity with each attack keeps growing and growing and it takes a special play to win it and you do it with your two teammates watching you, nothing quite like it. Its also equally rewarding if you work well defensively as a team, you will feel invincible as you watch the attacker dance and panic as he realizes hes gonna die play some elite with me, we will get you into it my friend. You have the love for the game as I do, you just need that special moment in elite for you to get hooked.

In the beginning of a round I might come up with idea to take unusual place for attacker and land some rox on him while he moves not expecting me to appear near him. Sometimes simply rush. Sometimes I try to identify where the attacker is and maybe take incovenient places for him to shoot me and convenient for me to shoot him during the round. This makes variety in defence to some degree. Maybe def is indeed more static at the top level.
It is a good mode for viewers. First, it is unique (at least for me). Second it is easy to follow (just one attacker). Third it is entertaining to watch attacker landing great instagib shots.
It is not my favourite to play though.