What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Discuss everything related to Shootmania.

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SpacemanSpiff
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What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by SpacemanSpiff »

After reading some of the first previews of ShootMania i was like, "OMG, thats the thing I've been waiting for! Great!"
But the more I thought about the concept behind ShootMania [easy map editor and one gun], some thoughts made me worry if its really going to be a good game.

Maps:

What at first got me excited about the game, was the built-in level editor. I always wanted to create my own maps for FPS games, just to be able to play on maps of old games that I loved (R6!) or simply create new maps out of ideas. I tried creating maps for Urban Terror, but found it to be too time consuming and fiddly with the given map editor. Now in ShootMania map creation looks very very easy and quick compared to standard level editors. Thats great! But as far as I've learned so far, the looks of the maps are restricted to certain themes that only change when you buy the new theme pack when it's released, am I right?

And thats where problems arise, IMO.

All maps gonna look roughly the same. Now I know in FPS games, it's mainly about the gameplay on a map, the layout, the design of pathways and battle areas that distinguishes a good and fun map from bad and boring maps. But I do like them to be visually distinctive, just for the ease of eyes and variety and to easily remember the map and the important zones on it. It's only when we know the ins and outs of maps (where the choke points are etc..) that actual skill of a player in a fight situation comes to play and the game becomes fun. Having to learn new maps all the time, that also visually look very similar if not the same, will render some of us running around as total noobs again and again. Ergo: no fun.

Also I (and others propably, too) will get bored at some stage when always having to fight in the same environment. I play games because I enjoy to fight (and be the hero of the day 8-) ) on that underwater research station, the medieval mansion, the top of a highrise building, the abandoned factory, the village in the jungle, the temple on the snowy mountain, whatever... you get the point. It might be just me, but the visual boredom is propably one of the main points thats gonna draw me away from the game.

Short version:
- all maps look somewhat the same (same textures, etc), making it hard to learn the maps.
- a lot of maps (that are hard to learn) means some of us are having a hard time against players that already know the map (no fun) or if the map is new to all, we will still run around like headless chickens for the first minutes...
- also same looks -> boring

Now I assume the map variety will quickly be limited due to the natural effect that server admins want a full server and therefore gonna chose a map rotation with popular maps. But still the visual similarity is a problem for me.

And another thing that concerns me:

Guns:

I like the idea of simplicity that ensures all players are on equal bases and the outcome of a fight is determined by skill and experience and not choice of weapon or perk or class.

But I admit I actually like to have a choice of weapons at my disposal for different gameplay and maps. I don't need 480 weapons to chose from, but I would like to have at least one submachinegun (high fire rate, low dmg), one shotgun (low firerate, high dmg... you know what I mean), one assault rifle, one sniper and a pistol and grenade as backup just to change my style of playing from time to time or to accomodate for the map or the role I play (defending, flag capturing, etc...).

But hey, if the gameplay is great, maybe I could get used to the one gun thing...

Now thats it and its quite a wall of text, but I really got excited by this fresh breeze of a game and wanted to share my concerns with it. I really hope it's going to be a good game, I really do.
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banjee
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Re: What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by banjee »

I understand what your point and I must agree with you on some of them. knowledge of a map in a fight is indeed an advantage, but as in Trackmania, there are so many maps that memorization of every one is almost impossible. I also have high expectations for being able to play maps without previous knowledge, in fact, I think it may be even more fun to play new maps every day.

About the boringness of the same environment, there are always mods: http://www.maniapark.com/liste_mod.php#mod. This example is taken from mods of Canyon , but I am sure that Storm mods will be numerous, and there is still Cryo.

About the Guns. If there is one style of gun you like in Shootmania, then build maps to capitalize on that weapon. Make it all those walkways that give you the certain weapon. Trackmania and Shootmaina are all about doing what you want and what you think would be fun. When Shootmania is released I think we will see it begin to develop in very god ways at the hands of the community.
alonsega
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Re: What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by alonsega »

I totally agree with banjee and would like to add that I really like the concepts of gliding and weapon changing according to the surface u r on, these are all putting emphasis on movement, which appeal to me as a TM player :thumbsup:
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eyebo
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Re: What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by eyebo »

By the way, Mods in TrackMania are a way to modify the environment's textures. They don't affect gameplay beyond the visual aspect.
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banjee
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Re: What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by banjee »

eyebo wrote:By the way, Mods in TrackMania are a way to modify the environment's textures. They don't affect gameplay beyond the visual aspect.
Yes, I forgot to clarify this. Thanks Eyebo :D
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SpacemanSpiff
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Re: What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by SpacemanSpiff »

Ok, I see that alot of the playerbase for ShootMania is propably going to come from the TrackMania community, hence racing gamers, who might expect something totally different from ShootMania than the usual FPS gamer.

Random maps might be ok for some just for fun deathmatch rounds, but if you want competitive gaming with clans on tournaments and leagues and what not, this just won't work. Random maps takes any tactics and teamplay out of the game, and as far as I know Nadeo is striving for competitive gaming with ShootMania, correct me if I'm wrong.

In almost all FPS games where there are dedicated servers, you will stumble upon servers that have only one map in the map rotation. Sounds boring, but thats what a lot of FPS gamers want. Learn the ins and outs of a map and then own the other team :D

And the texture changing mods are a nice addition, but will change the textures on every map, right? I mean, thats something, but doesn't really help with recognizing a map or certain battle zones... to the contrary.
Make it all those walkways that give you the certain weapon. Trackmania and Shootmaina are all about doing what you want and what you think would be fun.
My problem with that system is that I'm limited as a player to use a certain gun when the map maker wants me to. Thats what bothers me. I wan't to chose my style of playing, not having it decided for me by the map creator. But as alonsega pointed out, there is propably some fun in it, too, that I haven't fully grasped yet. And at least you always know where the snipers are ;)
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AlexKF
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Re: What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by AlexKF »

SpacemanSpiff wrote: It's only when we know the ins and outs of maps (where the choke points are etc..) that actual skill of a player in a fight situation comes to play and the game becomes fun. Having to learn new maps all the time, that also visually look very similar if not the same, will render some of us running around as total noobs again and again. Ergo: no fun.
I initially agreed with this statement, but now that I think about it I disagree. I think of it in this way: over the past 5 years I have played TM on and off... a few weeks ago I thought I would download TMN again to see if I could still play... I found that I could actually remember at least 50% of the maps and tricks to get the best times! Similarly when I played online and found a server with Swansea's tracks (I think that is his name) I remembered them too very well.

I have terrible memory, but for some reason I remember these very detaild maps that all look very similar. This whole point is also valid for TMCanyon...

I concluded that SM will be similar, and after 10 sec after turning round the first block we would remember what map it was.
Weeeeee
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Re: What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by Weeeeee »

@SpacemanSpiff

TM has been a competitive game for 5-6 years,sure the fact that new maps for all tourneys could make it abit less fair,but it has worked fine,with normally releasing new maps 1 week before a tournament round.
Race
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Re: What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by Race »

Well, just think about how ESL Leagues work.

There is a regular change of maps ofc, but you still got the same maps for some months (at the beginning of TM e.g. the Nadeo Pro Tracks and the ESL Cuptracks were used for ages).
This means, those very popular maps will be played not just for a week, but for several months. So you can train them at your best "to own the rest".

In my opinion, this somehow regular map change system is inferior to the system of games like CounterStrike. Seriously, you never thought of some different maps then Dust 1+2, Office, and co?
You have your time to train some maps, but at some point, one will reach his or her limit at that special map. So maybe, if different maps are used, this person might be able to improve his skill and reach a better standing.
Somehow it is sort of a automatic selfregulation.

Still, if you have reached a certain level of skill, you will be able to play on each and every map on a very high level.
Just think of Frostbeule or Karjen at TM. one could give them any track and 1-2 hours of spare time, and they will crush the world record. The same development will be seen at Shootmania, as a pro will be able to "read" every map.
For custom gamers there is a similar system working. From my experience I can say, that one searches a few favourite servers with a certain map style. Once you got your favs, you will mostly play on these and get to know the maps as time passes by. And as there are regularly new maps, you got your chance to be top at a new map right from its start on that server, whilst with the CS-situation, you will never really have a chance to catch up with those with years of experience.

Overall one could say, that the mentioned "problem" with maps is no problem at all. Just get your level of playing and you will have fun ;)

I hope my opinion is somehow suitable as some general reply to this discussion ;)
Greetings.
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SpacemanSpiff
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Re: What worries me about ShootMania (maps and guns)

Post by SpacemanSpiff »

Please be aware that I never played TrackMania and really don't know anything about how the game and competitive gaming works with that game.

The major difference I see, and thats probably the point where we are talking past each other, is that for me at least, competitive FPS gaming is about teamplay, whereas racing games are one against the others. So I'm pretty sure ShootMania will work very well as a deathmatch game like Unreal Tournament, Quake, Nexuiz, etc... but I worry if it will be successfull as a teamplay game. Afterall you need good communication in matches, and they involve very specific location shout outs, like "enemy flanking through gardens/they camp at pillars" ...stuff like that. Thats where I see problems with repetitive map designs and lack of distinction and variety.

But don't get me wrong, I love the concept of MASSES of maps from the community, especially because I would love to contribute some by myself, too! Thats what attracted me to the game in the first place. Also I'm pretty sure that for competitive gamplay, the problem will sort itself out by means that only a very low amount of maps will be played that were tested and approved by the community beforehand.

I would greatly appreciate it if the game would already ship with several sets of texture packs and map objects for the editor. That might do it. :thumbsup:
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