Macros, macros everywhere.

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Hylis
Nadeo
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by Hylis » 15 Jul 2013, 09:52

UrinStein wrote:it is fucking removed. I bursting with hate right now. I feel like a ping-pong-ball rather then a customer and part of a community
Being part of a community can mean to have people that think different than you may get what they need, not to talk or behave like you do at all.

I can understand that you would like it otherway personnally, but please do not invoque the community thing. Because being part of a community that survive is not only keeping the people that are existing in it, but meaning to be ready to welcome the new players as well. And you clearly describe how difficult it is to switch from "space bar" jumping to "right click jumping" in your post. It's a good argument to avoid to make it as well, since it removes the ability to jump with keyboard. I don't say that we should not put things for players to master, along the way, but there is like walls that you would raise by making such radical binary steps between a player who does it or a player who does not, and based on potentially hardware. You know, we even had to move the default 'chat' key of the good old habit of TM, to bind the keyboard by default, since SO many players were using it first when playing Shootmania.

So, I am looking for smoother skill steps than the suffering you went through to change. I am sorry not to have done it before, if that's the deep meaning of your comment, but I was not aware until release and had to observe, ask and play since then to make my oppinion. Just imagine that your friends will not have to change so much their habbits in order to be at a level that could make them play with you. Playing with friends is cool, and I believe that's a quality of football and a default of Quake. Too quickly comes the moment where you can not play with them in the later.

Now, if you believe that the skill is not the reason of winning, then you should look at the palmares of people who won with or without it, and see that the skill is still obligatory to win at top level.

I also know that speed is fun and so is air control, some part of the walljump b2, the previous left/right spams of the alpha, the microjump etc. But they all bring some default with them that can not make us accept it in a solid gameplay. So, I am not making favor to Elite by letting it in Beta 2, but to competition that are still using it. For me, the people using beta 2 are loosing even more time for later, so, as you can see, it's a good way to avoid further frustrations for you to prevent it to exist into your preferred mode.

It is true that we are spending much more time on Elite, and especially at the moment. But it is made to welcome more players thank to the demo. And if we would like to welcome many players that will then go on your preferred mode, we need to welcome them as well as possible. And for that, I don't think that the flawed micro jump is a right thing. You were welcomed without it. I just hope that we will find additionnal good stuff for the gameplay, like we did since in the past with the progressive jump, the deny, the autofocus, the walljump, the tri-laser (I think it's good), the ammo reload, the stamina, the weapon locations, the gliding etc.

And if you are more positive, I am sure we will listen even better. And at least, avoid to be in hate when a team is working so hard to make the game better. Hate is more ugly than the absence of micro jump.

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UrinStein
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by UrinStein » 15 Jul 2013, 10:34

I think you got me wrong there Hylis,

I am not complaining about other people having other opinions. What is frustrating me here is the Gameplay being randomly changed from my point of view. I remember when other weapons were introduced to Elite Mode people did not like like it and so it was dismissed again. But that was clearly an experiment and it was quickly brought to an end.
The Microjump though was intruduced ages ago. In that time more and more people learned to use it and so I became interested. I do not have any problem to have to learn something. It was hard learning to play more with mouse, but it was worth it! I did it because I would benefit from working on my skills and it is great when you see what you have achieved. I played Stadium for 3 years and in the end I have learned so much stuff and still I felt like I was learning even more.
Now what is really frustrating, is that achievement simply being deleted from the game. I spent so much effort for nothing at all.

As viper said:
viperozza wrote:But in my opinion you should keep the game consistent!

Now despite my habits to learn things slowly but steady, I will have to wonder if it will even pay off to join a server and practice anything at all. When maximum skill level is easily reached, playing won't be much more than doodling around on servers without any purpose.

I kind of over dramatised it here, but I guess you get the point.
I like coming here and knowing what I am playing this game for and in the past the game has regularly been extended with more possibilities wich all had to be mastered first though. Those stamina-sucking blocks for example were more than confusing at first but now I try to see their potential in playing and building.

This time though one of the possibilities the game had to offer for a long time has been deleted all of a sudden.
And that is what I do not like.

Learning is easy, can be fun and will almost always pay off ( in any situation of life :P).
Forgetting never is any of those above.

That's what I think.
kadaz wrote:> That's where I disagree, cause the truth is, the truth is, weather you agree to disagree or not with liking it.
> I know I speak intelligent English

gaertner
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by gaertner » 15 Jul 2013, 10:46

You can not simply remove the key movement mechanic (and one of the only unique things this game has to offer) from the game . o_O

Hylis
Nadeo
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by Hylis » 15 Jul 2013, 11:07

UrinStein wrote: a. The Microjump though was intruduced ages ago.
b. Now what is really frustrating, is that achievement simply being deleted from the game. I spent so much effort for nothing at all. As viper said:
viperozza wrote:But in my opinion you should keep the game consistent!
c. I kind of over dramatised it here
d. This time though one of the possibilities the game had to offer for a long time has been deleted all of a sudden.
I disagree a little on (a) and agree on (b), (c) and (d)

a) it was introduced in beta but started to really be used in post release. Would have seen it in beta, I would have more quickly removed it. But it is not ages ago, it's around 3 months that 'some' people started practicing it (and you said last ten days mainly)

so, I agree on
b) the game must be consistent as much as possible. I saw comments on other games and I believe it was ruining the other games, exactly for what you are saying. It was said from a top level player on Planetside since the tactics had to be always changed (you create one, train, and then it changes) But if it causes trouble on the very long run, I think it requires to adapt as soon as possible, and I don't think it was too late (see (a))

c) it is not a small thing here. I think that people react strongly because of (b) But it will be more peaceful in the head of players to not have to ask themselves if others are qualifying or using macros, if they need to buy a new hardware, or if their friends will likely to come play with them by being told that they need to give up the keyboard habit as a prerequesite to have a change to perform, let alone hacing the right mouse. The frustration of (b) should not hide the good arguments or our move.

d) I know it was all of sudden, and not announced. In fact, we are going toward demos, and becaues of (c) good reasons I gave, I had to decide now. I took as much time as possible to decide, and it is why (a) felt like it to you. But for the sake of (b) for the upcoming players, I had to do it now. So, it's not perfect to make it 'all of sudden' and it hurts (like the quick removing of a sticking-plaster.. I am pretty sure it is international ^^)


I hope you understand better now why we are making this difficult call. It's really for you as well, even if many have difficulties to believe it.

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dreammyw0w
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by dreammyw0w » 15 Jul 2013, 12:37

Hylis ,

Answer me this :

Why dont you add a microjump button & remove the fulljump button?
This will keep the game fast & smooth = more fun to spectate = more fun to play.
Nobody likes slow games.


Also, every week on Sundays there are +-90teams ( 270players ) playing go4shootmania with B2-settings.
Do you believe this will change?

You think you are making the game better ( and maybe its true ), but what you are doing is creating a GAP between B2-players & the B3-players.

Kegulf
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by Kegulf » 18 Jul 2013, 15:24

UrinStein wrote:Now what is really frustrating, is that achievement simply being deleted from the game. I spent so much effort for nothing at all.
+1
dreammyw0w wrote:Also, every week on Sundays there are +-90teams ( 270players ) playing go4shootmania with B2-settings.
Do you believe this will change?

You think you are making the game better ( and maybe its true ), but what you are doing is creating a GAP between B2-players & the B3-players.
+1



The whole "Hardware" issue is BS :lol: I acctually tried to micro jump with an 10$ mouse soon after this topic was created, and it was easily doable :p So if anyone had just trained and done some research, they would have found out how to do it. I have not played SM since the latest patch, sadly because I feel it's ruined. I feel like a noob, and I have been playing since B1.... Sorry to say this Hylis but without the micro jump the game just feals clumsy, slow and a little bit boring imho :|
WnL»Kegulf
TeamFounder of WnL


Anything code related? Be patient, I am a noob :p


My Nadeo games:
TrackMania Nations ESWC
TrackMania Nations + United Forever
TrackMania 2 Canyon
ShootMania Storm
Trackmania 2 Stadium

caspa
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[WARNING, LONG ASS POST]

Post by caspa » 19 Jul 2013, 00:16

To Hylis/Nadeo

I want to put some perspective in for this horrible decision that you've made.

Right, so this is how I see it. The original post of this topic came around the end of April, which I believe was shortly after the IPL Launch tournament and the full release of the game. A lot of people watched the stream of the launch tournament, and some (not all) of the teams attending were utilising the perfect minijumps. Fnatic ended up winning, and in my opinion, it was clear to see that their use of minijumps played a role in helping them achievement. That said, one of the members (JiePie) as far as I can remember was not actually using it. But they still won. I believe that this event generally popularised the minijump, and heavily contributed to the mass usage of it from the community. Also, this was a LAN event, where all players are expected to be quite vigilant regarding macros/any sort of cheats. People were already aware that using a macro was possible. This is an example of the evolution of the metagame - people saw that the minijump brought great potential in improving individual play.

That said, being able to minijump 100% perfectly doesn't automatically mean that you are suddenly way better than everyone else. Being able to use it effectively is what sets players apart. However, as people have begun to learn how to do it, the playing field has actually become more even.

At this point in time (Mid-July), minijumping (written as MJ from now on) is incredibly common now. Every player and their dog can do it - there are a number of mice (gaming and non-gaming) that are significantly easier to consistently perform them on, and this information is pretty common and freely available to know by simply doing a bit of research. Also, the technique itself is not limited to purely the mouse. With the advent of beta2, I slowly taught myself to do near perfect and consistent MJs using the space bar (on a Tt Esports Challenger) by sliding the tip of my thumb off the edge very quickly. After attending an i48 I saw that it was a bit easier to do it using the mouse, so then I had to adapt and I began to use mouse2 instead. During this learning period I also switched to a mechanical keyboard (Tt MEKA) and I wasn't able to use my spacebar technique anymore. I also bought a newer version of my mouse and was easily able to MJ without any problems whatsoever. It took me about 5 minutes to master it and since then I would say I can do it 99% of the time without fail (resulting in a big double jump). Also, I began to mess around with my keyboard and I found another technique to do it on my spacebar again.

Obviously these are my own personal experiences and I must stress the point that I do NOT speak for everyone, but my point is that there are different ways of doing it on different types of peripheral. This can be made easier by purchasing a specific mouse, which leads me on to my next point...

Many people may object to the idea of paying upwards of 60 euros just for a peripheral that they already have, just to be able to MJ better - and I understand that. But why don't you look at it as an investment - much like the investment you make in buying a new PC so you get a better frame rate and a 120hz monitor so that your gameplay experience is vastly improved. If you want to get serious about competing in shootmania, buying a new mouse is just another one of these investments. Is that not the same thing?

I did want to speak a little bit about Obstacle, which judging by the number of players is probably at the same level or higher level of popularity than Elite, AND a "casual" mode. The changes in the movement are most heavily seen here and it seems like Nadeo have completely ignored and disregarded them once again here. However, thats another story for another day.

I honestly don't understand what audience this game is targeted towards. Before I began playing last year (I started at the beginning of July 2012), I had heard a lot about SM via word of mouth, and how it was being engineered to be a strong esports title. Its now been a year since then and obviously a lot can change in a long period of time, but it seems like Nadeo want to appease the casual community now? I really just don't know. Hylis, please enlighten me.

Regarding the target audience - the amount of marketing (excluding the launch parties across the world, which I hear were very successful) has been very minimal. I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong), much of the exposure of this game has come from the online/LAN events and streaming that is put out regularly and to quite a good standard - for example, CrusadersTV stream almost EVERY cup every night....thats dedication. 95% of this streamed gameplay comes from Elite, the title which is in a serious amount of danger. This is the part of the community that drives the game forward - casuals just bring up the numbers. Who are you going to listen to more?
So, I am looking for smoother skill steps than the suffering you went through to change. I am sorry not to have done it before, if that's the deep meaning of your comment, but I was not aware until release and had to observe, ask and play since then to make my oppinion. Just imagine that your friends will not have to change so much their habbits in order to be at a level that could make them play with you. Playing with friends is cool, and I believe that's a quality of football and a default of Quake. Too quickly comes the moment where you can not play with them in the later.
So instead of leaving things intact, you've changed the MJ. Do things really needed to be handed on a plate to newcomers? By doing so you haven't altered the learning curve of SM (which is already pretty smooth and accessible), but you've alienated the majority of the competitive community. Also, some of the points you made here don't really make sense and seem to just be detracting from the original point. Some people are better than others, you can't level the playing field this way. By improving your skill level you open yourself up to a completely new competitive and social community. You cannot compare SM to football, because football at its purest level is just kicking a ball. Playing Elite encompasses a whole range of variables and skills. (Forgive me if this is also somewhat hard to understand, I had some trouble putting my thoughts into words here).
Now, if you believe that the skill is not the reason of winning, then you should look at the palmares of people who won with or without it, and see that the skill is still obligatory to win at top level.
Yes, and by limiting the MJ you're effectively adding a low ceiling to that skill cap.
It is true that we are spending much more time on Elite, and especially at the moment. But it is made to welcome more players thank to the demo. And if we would like to welcome many players that will then go on your preferred mode, we need to welcome them as well as possible. And for that, I don't think that the flawed micro jump is a right thing. You were welcomed without it. I just hope that we will find additionnal good stuff for the gameplay, like we did since in the past with the progressive jump, the deny, the autofocus, the walljump, the tri-laser (I think it's good), the ammo reload, the stamina, the weapon locations, the gliding etc.
I don't think that a new player will immediately start to rage about minijumps. First this new player has to understand how it works and what is capable with it. If this "additional good stuff for gameplay" is so good, why has it been vehemently rejected by the core competitive scene?


I have a lot more to say about this but its getting late and I'm more or less done for tonight. I've been mulling over this post for a long time and theres so much stuff that I want to address that its taken me a long time to even get started on it. I don't wanna touch on any potential compromises/solutions here, because there doesn't need to be.

One experience that I believe all FPS players go through is that when you get your ass completely handed to you for the first time, a couple of common things run through your head. A) "Damn that player is good, I want to aspire to that level of skill" or B) "Thats not possible, this guy is definitely cheating and I cannot accept this".
As time passes and your own skill level improves, option B tends to be less and less common and is also the mindset of a bad player who limits their own self-improvement. Myself and many others I'm sure are guilty of this at some point in their development.

I've not written on here much before because I generally agreed with the direction that the developers were taking with this game, but with the release of Beta3 the growing discontent with the game and now this has led me to the point where I feel I really need to make my feelings known.

So please Hylis/Nadeo, listen to this post and consider every point that I make. Listen to the community that drives this game. Please don't flat out ignore me like you did in the feedback thread, and please try to make your response as clear and concise as possible because I think that some of the points that you make are lost in translation..

Its not too late to go back on your decision ;)


TLDR: Don't nerf the minijumps (but you knew that anyway)

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roguesergeant
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by roguesergeant » 19 Jul 2013, 05:27

I have to admit. It was needed to break the macroing people. But it also takes from the game from the players who can do it without macros.

KabaL
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Re: Macros, macros everywhere.

Post by KabaL » 19 Jul 2013, 09:58

Hi all,

First of all, microjump system depends a lots of your mouse2 button. It's nearly impossible to do that on 99% keyboard of the market, and good luck to do this with mouse4 button for example.
Some players uses macro to do this.

But, speed from 0 (= microjump) was a nice addition to the fast FPS game.

I think there is no need to keep jump/stamina on the same button right now.
I will prefer a lot to have a stamina button that is use for his purpose only (= speed high / speed low) and a button for "progressive jump". Stamina can be use without a jump first.

With this, the game will be better and more fast i think. And all systems (mouse/keyboard) will remains equals..

PS: BUNNY HOPING WAS POSSIBLE ON COUNTER STRIKE 1.0. I DID THIS WITHOUT ANY SCRIPT, 95% OF PLAYERS USED SCRIPT TO DO THIS. VALVE REMOVED IT. I NEVER STOP COUNTER STRIKE BECAUSE OF THIS...

sadzealot
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Re: [WARNING, LONG ASS POST]

Post by sadzealot » 19 Jul 2013, 19:17

caspa wrote:To Hylis/Nadeo

I honestly don't understand what audience this game is targeted towards. Before I began playing last year (I started at the beginning of July 2012), I had heard a lot about SM via word of mouth, and how it was being engineered to be a strong esports title. Its now been a year since then and obviously a lot can change in a long period of time, but it seems like Nadeo want to appease the casual community now? I really just don't know. Hylis, please enlighten me.
Indeed. There are many things that in Shootmania that is highly questionable when it comes to 'competitive esport title'. Not to mention many small details are overlooked in the game, because Nadeo thinks "it's fine the way it is". It really isn't if competitive esport title is still the main goal (sadly it doesn't look that way, it looks more to be the FPS game that Nadeo employees want)

The biggest problem I have however is that they're trying to create the same enviroment for a wide range of titles. And maybe that's possible (however, I think certain gamemodes will be far better with their own individual tweaks to weapons etc. Take Siege for instance, it was widely shocking when shooting nucleus with laser gave nucleus the instant reload. And that was a change that was made because of Elite? Or other gamemodes? I don't know, but it messed heavily with other gamemodes and how the weapons worked there).

However, I don't think it will be in the long run. Sure, keep the movement the same over all titles, that would be great. But if you then do so, it has to be based around the competitive scene none the less. Casuals will still enjoy their games and gamemodes they play, even Elite becuase they should be playing with people of their own skill-level anyway.

Someone will always master something others can't. Unless you nerf more stuff, like walljumps etc. Someone will always have far superiour aim and gamesense, unless you ofc make hitboxes gigantic and remove everything but the flat castle block and poles. And even then someone will have better reactions, so you need to add a slow to the cursor ingame after moving the mouse to compensate for that.

I don't mind you changing stuff if only your arguments made sense and was made from a game design perspective.

They never are. Always your arguments are something for this or something for that, rarely do you come out and say "we want to change and slightly nerf the walljumps from beta 2 because we want this and this gameplay to work for these and these modes"

No, instead it was "we don't want high walls" and "we want walljumps to be properly coded so they're not affected by geometry of walls".

And neither has anything to do with the gameplay. And I feel the same goes for MJ. You nerfed it, and you explained it, but it hasn't really been explained from a gameplay perspective. You've given reasons, but none of them really matters because they're arbritrary.

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