[Need cross enviroment servers] for tm2

[Romain42]

But as we don't know yet exactly how the whole system will be working, we will probably need to wait until the release to see what is happening.

Indeed... But the fact is, while buying a product, we usually like to know what we are buying... For me, a business can't be genuine without that. Of course, maybe we'll get clearer statements until Valley is sold (i prefer not to use the "released" word since it is not that meaningful)...

Furthermore, this unclear communication might damage the trust in Nadeo. That gives the impression Nadeo didn't completed the conception of the framework of the game. Like if they designed games and then realized they had to improvise all the environment of the games themselves. Like if they were building something without a plan. Or maybe everything is already designed but for some reason they don't dare say it...

He is the "big boss" behind TrackMania and ManiaPlanet, and all development somehow went through his head

Still, it is strange that we didn't recieve a clear statement about that, especially given that Hylis gave a lot of information on aspects that seem less important (at least to my eyes).

But besides the monetary aspect, my guess is that canyon will be dead in the first week if it tries to survive on it's own. I've seen such a decline already and imagine all the players going to stadium or valley 'TITLES' .. it's just impossible for a clan (group of friends) to exist if all these diversities exist and not united.

Without multi-environment servers, the death of Canyon seems pretty likely to me too... I know lots of players that are bored by that single environment. Whithin my team and network, lots came back to United or stopped TM (of which lots played United or even TMS for years - i'm not talking about people that leave a game after 2 months)...

The matter is, does Nadeo want Canyon to die or not? There could be advantages to kill it. Especially, it would in some way force Canyon players to buy the following environment (motivation to follow the buddies). The fact environments became games could also enable Nadeo to use them as the clothes industry uses fashion: a good way to lead people to consume more even before the products are worn out. The problem with such a system is that once an environment is not anymore the last, it becomes obsolete and it's a part of the game that is lost.

On another hand, the multi-environments framework could provide a different motivation to buy all the environments (access all the servers). Hard to stay which model has the best commercial potential, but definitely the latter is much better in terms of diversity and, let i dare, preservation of the heritage of TM.

As well, it fits better with the values Hylis claimed to support (talk one another, and so on). I don't feel the "balkanisation" of the community is a good thing, and certainly it doesn't comply with what the game was until now. Except the TMU vs TMN troll of course, but anyone can easily stay it wasn't in that troll TM got its acknowledgements/fame.

There is also an issue with the so called e-sport to deal with. Does Nadeo have the means to oblige the e-sport scene to switch to a new game each year? If not, should the e-sport remain on Stadium? Then, can the e-sport be an efficient showcase for the whole game? If only Stadium has a mass coverage, how to make the other environments successful?

As you said about the clans, lots of them will have to collapse or to split if it is not possible to create multi-environments servers. Some players will leave. The system will lead to permanent doubt which might feed fear and speculation about the future (and yes, you can compare with the financial crisis, people hate to invest/imply in any project in case of doubts over the future). All the structures will be weakened, not only the teams.

Last but not least, i don't really understand what is the use of ManiaPlanet if we can't play several titles on the same server. Maniaplanet was told to be a tool that would enable a better integration of the games. But if servers can run only a single environment, it would end with the opposite. Wouldn't it ruin all the benefit of the concept? What was the goal then? To build an operation system? Isn't Windows or any opponent enough? To get a social network? Is Facebook or any opponent that bad? I still wonder. I still wonder what in Maniaplanet deserves to spend years of development. But let's say we might know in 2017...

[TMarc]

Who said that ManiaPlanet is completely ready yet?
Many things are yet to come, this year or later.

And please don't focus too much on Canyon, let's wait for Valley and Stadium² as well

[Romain42]

Of course many things are to come, but i think this feature is important, and i wanted to explain why, in my opinion. And by the way, i don't see where i wrote that ManiaPlanet will not evolve... I think you over-interpreted a little bit. My point was rather to say, given the time Nadeo seems to have already spent on Maniaplanet itself rather than the games it supports, one can worry if ManiaPlanet is worth the time it needed, in the state of the art.

I think my text was not off-topic, i don't really understand why you want the thread to go in another direction. I think those points i highlighted deserved to be thought... Unfortunately, it seems those behaviours such as "OMG Valley is so fine, i'm so impatient to get it and i already love it even i if don't know anything about it yet" are more appreciated here than the structured argumentations... In this framework, we should not expect too much from this forum. And it might explain why so many old guys from this community left it...

[TMarc]

Now you are taking me wrong I think.
I'm not against cross-envi servers, I would really appreciate them as well, but with the increasing usage of resources already for one title, it might be very difficult to achieve this for everyone.

I only recommend to wait a bit more until we really have more titles to vary for TM²,
and until Nadeo releases something useable before criticising the actual state of ManiaPlanet 2.x this much.

Its rather the attitude of people who think they should instantaneoulsy get what they want, and communicate this often in very unpolite way, perhaps also the apparently more harsh way of the people coming from the FPS side which made the elder leave, if they just don't have any other personal reason after a long time with TrackMania.

[Smigles]

The main problem is this :

Nadeo does not sell single games. They sell the entire Maniaplanet idea. Where you have RPG and Racing and FPS and you can build and switch servers and playstyles and games etc.

They sell this. But it is NOWHERE near finished. Compared to the vision of the final product ( which would be amazing IMO btw, not trying to diss here... ), we are now somewhere in alpha stage. Many parts of the game are still missing. Many key features are still missing. And it has been that way since the canyon release.

The problem with this is that 1: we pay for the games allready and expect more than just a alpha stage. 2 : during normal betas, the developers actualy communicate with the testers and listen to their input. 3 : With key features missing, the people who play the game NOW get bored/frustrated fast and stop playing again -> community is dying.


I understand that Nadeo wants to bring the TMN community over to tm2 as fast as possible. It has been the biggest and most active TM community since stadium came out. I just wish that they would also think about the people who bougth tmo 10 years ago, then TMS, then TMU. The people who financed Nadeo for 10 years now. All they get at the moment is one big kick in the teeth.

I only recommend to wait a bit more until we really have more titles to vary for TM²,
and until Nadeo releases something useable before criticising the actual state of ManiaPlanet 2.x this much.

The cross enviroment server is a very very basic function. It should work no matter if you have 2 or 100 titles. The function is always the same. The fact that Nadeo has not built it in yet shows me some very hard design strategy mistakes. They should have built this in in the basic core of the maniaplanet code. It's not there. Why wait even longer for a feature that is the FIRST idea that comes to mind when you hear about maniaplanet ?

[MetsaneXIII]

-snip-

So you'd rather wait for possibly three years for anything at all? Or would you want to play a title from its first public release?
Nadeo, in my eyes, has done the SMART thing by releasing it title-by-title. And, not only that, but they're always fixing bugs. How many AAA titles have you played where it's riddled with bugs and the developers don't even CARE to fix them?
I'm one of those people who would rather want a complete product in the long run. Hell, I signed up for the betas for both Valley and Stadium to try to advance that goal of a completed product sooner.
I'm just saying. It's either have a title to play for a few years while it improves, or wait for a few years for a completed product, but nothing to play from it in the meanwhile.

[Smigles]

-snip-

I am ok with building while releasing. As long as they build a foundation first on which they can later build more, you know, with a long term strategy and planing and such. Missing such obvious and basic functions as cross "game" servers is not a good sign.

I know, that ship has sailed. It's no use now saying "I wish it would all be different". I think many of us have ideas on how Nadeo could turn this thing around. The main problem by now is that ( as this thread proves ) Nadeo is not talking to us.

[TMarc]

Then you don't read any of the other threads where they are in fact talking to us.

No one, especially no one from Nadeo told that everything was ready.
Hylis and his team they have so many ideas already, plus the uncountable from the community, that they might take more than just a couple of years to reach the desired level.

What they are doing actually is something yet unseen in the game industry.
No other game studio has been working this close with their future customers and for such a long time.

I can tell you because I am following TrackMania already since its first demo release,
and soon after it I joined the French forum, where there were a lot of discussions already there, not only about TrackMania, but also about ManiaPlanet and its future.

It is a game - and a game system - evolution we can monitor and partially influence.
Most of all the other games get just released without big community interaction before, they are ready as the developpers wanted it, and not always as the players wanted it.

Not everthing Nadeo is doing is good, but for the game itself, TrackMania and its editing possibilities as well for absolute beginners as for experienced designers is really great.
Some limits are given by the developpers, some constraints will always be there.

You should at least try to give them and their games a chance, even if it takes time for their evolution

[Smigles]

You should at least try to give them and their games a chance, even if it takes time for their evolution

Game has been anounced for more than 2 years. I think that's enugh time.

Also, I think you have not realy been in many betas of other games. It is quite normal nowadays that developers work with the community. And the fact that they talk about other things in other threads but dont say anythign here shows me that it's a question they realy have not thought about. Which is not only surprising, it is shocking !

[Romain42]

I'm not against cross-envi servers, I would really appreciate them as well, but with the increasing usage of resources already for one title, it might be very difficult to achieve this for everyone.

First, i'm happy if you acknowledge cross-envi servers have an importance. That was the main point - if not the only - of my intervention there. They are a core feature of the game, definitely. Sooner or later (and i can agree if it is later), it will have to be implemented.

I only recommend to wait a bit more until we really have more titles to vary for TM²,
and until Nadeo releases something useable before criticising the actual state of ManiaPlanet 2.x this much.

Don't misunderstand me: my point is not to criticize the game. It is to warn about the traps Nadeo might fall in. Also, this part of the forum is called "suggestions", not "feedbacks". It is logical that we try to anticipate here, and even to push for some things if we feel they are really crucial. Furthermore, i don't agree with your recommendation and i'll definitely not obey. Because the game is designed now, and not tomorrow. Expressing regrets tomorow will be too late. The time for suggestions is today.

And even about criticism... As long as it remains respectful (and as far as i know i never insulted anyone here), criticizm should not be interpreted as an aggression: it is not a bad thing for whoever is able to take advantage of it. People of Nadeo might feel disappointed reading what i write here, and i acknowledge it is maybe a bit less enjoyable than flattery. But hey, it happens to everybody to be criticized. We all have been criticized at school, at work... Of course it is not fun time, but it is by this way we improve, not by chosing the comfort to be flattered. And i am sure Nadeo is able to deal with that. So still, even if there are criticizm in the comments, that remains relevant.

Sorry for the off-topic digression, but it was important to stay that for me.

No one, especially no one from Nadeo told that everything was ready.
Hylis and his team they have so many ideas already, plus the uncountable from the community, that they might take more than just a couple of years to reach the desired level.

Of course, and i don't doubt we'll see lots of new features in the coming months/years. And i am pretty happy with that. Simply, i think some features are more important than others. I would prefer to have the cross-server function and not - for instance - an improved ingame social network, rather than the opposite. It is a matter of expressing priorities. And of worrying to be understood.

Now again, if Nadeo says Valley will come in early 2013 and the cross-enviro feature later, say for instance late 2013, i am happy with that. I would simply be reassured if Nadeo stayed clearly that this feature was in their list and that they'll not give up with it, even if it is complex to implement. Because this feature is worth the trouble.