Beta 3 RC1 laser tests

[maiiden]

verdi that doesnt help, and the go way back seems unreal so let us thinking in an constructiv way instead of saying the same all time "we want old elite back it was better"!

[w1lla]

keep elite classic and make a new pack called "elite screwup for fun" or something like that since elite was good as it was before. 2.0 elite -> good! leave it be.

NEVER TOUCH A RUNNING SYSTEM probably never hered that one...

Reminds me of the First Elite version

So bad it evolved


o.O wait got it on my hdd. Even as the first Joust script


Find the easter egg in this post....

[v3rdi]

well it was better and all competativ play is on beta 2 since the new one is not working.
and realy as i see it nadeo doesnt think about how the balance kicks off when they throw in stuff. else they would have already reworked the nucl. no they still have it the old way (wich was good cuz you had no nucl as main weapon) now you do and +0ing it gives the nucl more reload and all that.. tired of explaining everything.

the old elite was awesome simple best game ever the new one is just more or less a screw over!

[notmykimchi]

We played some b3 Elite scrims with (top50 Elite), but I forgot to mark that "auto replay" option as I otherwise would forgett it being turned on and it would clutter my HDD with random stuff, and the replays are not accurate anyways.

Basically on high level play laser reduce the pace on certain maps, such as castle crasher, in which you cant rush through and you're forced to stop at least once. In rushable maps, lasers are not that of a threat as you can pass em pretty quick and once your in close combat you've the shield advantage !

The games basically would have finished the same as without lasers...



Contrary to nucleus, which are insanely overpowered. We're talking about a slowly leviating projectile with a huge trigger sphere. So if your out of stamina, or not sliding, which happens at least at the pole, the Nucleus can become a threat if you miss it. Sometime you even wj over one but you're still in its damage zone. If you play seriously, you just abuse the huge impact zone and literally turtle the pole !

This made us to moderate the nucleus if we want to play jff, as a well placed nucleus takes out the fun making every play bitter serious. However, it's still a nice tactical choice, but the huge impact zone, where the nucleus triggers "mid-air" and the "explosion range" should be reduced to at least "pole-size". Actually you can shield "1.2 x pole-size" with a single nucleus bomb. So, if attacker is left with a single life and there is one nucleus alive... a really good shot is in need then.


Considering my 12 years of esports experience, I always gauge a new esports game mechanics with a single, arrogant sentence "It's part of the game, so we use it... u mad ?" !

The moment you here this reaction you know there is an obvious disbalance. The moment everyone is aware of some mechanics disproportional superiority is the moment a nerf is in need.

[Untriggered]

I like the idea of a new weapon. A stun gun could work but as a few people already pointed out it might end up slowing down the gameplay, resulting in a less intense spectate experience. But it's still beta, so I wouldn't mind trying it out.

If you want to keep the laser for the defenders maybe limit it to one of the defenders and give that person only x amount of laser shots for the entire round. Maybe just one shot and having rockets as a secondary weapon which only holds a max size 2 or 3 rockets instead of 4 with. And these should reload. However this idea require changes to the core of the game like not having infinite ammo and only being able to wield more than one weapon at a time.

I also have little idea for the +0. I'm not sure if it would play out good but what if shooting down a rocket would restore some stamina. Not a lot of course but just a small amount giving the attacker a reason to shot them down.

What about adding some kind of nucleus pads. These could be placed by the map makers so that they cannot be used near the goal. However, maybe tunnels already cover this and it just doesn't play out that good.

[sadzealot]

I like the idea of a new weapon. A stun gun could work but as a few people already pointed out it might end up slowing down the gameplay, resulting in a less intense spectate experience. But it's still beta, so I wouldn't mind trying it out.

The thing about trying it out is that you would know beforehand that it will slow down the gameplay, so it's almost pointless. I'll rather spend time trying out something that you don't quite know beforehand how it's gonna turn out. For instance a new type of weapon? Maybe some kind of "grenade launcher". It acts like a grenade launcher, but it bounces once before it becomes sticky and has the power of a nucleus? And maybe only 2 ammo? I would much rather go test something like this instead of a stungun/laser on defence.

If you want to keep the laser for the defenders maybe limit it to one of the defenders and give that person only x amount of laser shots for the entire round. Maybe just one shot and having rockets as a secondary weapon which only holds a max size 2 or 3 rockets instead of 4 with. And these should reload. However this idea require changes to the core of the game like not having infinite ammo and only being able to wield more than one weapon at a time.

Exactly. I think Munglo has stated several times, that you just cannot balance lasers on defence in a way with ultraslow reload (or x number of shots) because that becomes boring to play and slows down gameplay. It might add more depth to the game in terms of tactics on defence, but if playing with a laser on defence is boring as hell, who would want to do it? Who wants to be THE laserguy on defence when all you do is stand somewhere and fire off 1 shot every 5-6 seconds before you switch to a nerfed rocketlauncher?

I also have little idea for the +0. I'm not sure if it would play out good but what if shooting down a rocket would restore some stamina. Not a lot of course but just a small amount giving the attacker a reason to shot them down.

This I can get onboard with, however there's great flaw in your reasoning. Attackers already have a reason to shoot down rockets: It saves them from taking a direct hit. And trust me, no attacker is ever gonna risk firing off laser at rockets not going towards him to regain some stamina because if he misses it's bad news for him.

Besides, to make this worth while you'll have to give the attacker enough stamina back to make it worthwhile shooting down rockets not going his way, which could possibly lead to players with really good aim never having to manage their stamina because they never run out?

Proper managment of stamina is a skill in this game.

What about adding some kind of nucleus pads. These could be placed by the map makers so that they cannot be used near the goal. However, maybe tunnels already cover this and it just doesn't play out that good.

This is a bit trickier. On a pad you tend to be very vulnreable which is why laserpads work well. You're in the open, but you also have a very powerfull weapon at your disposal, so it balances out nicely. A nucleuspad however would not be the same, because if you move even once on it, the attacker knows exactly where you are (if he's not miles away, but if he was, why would you want to be standing on a nucleuspad in the first place?) and that you only have a slowmoving nucleus at your disposal.

Maybe it can be balanced in terms of how these pads can be positioned etc, but you already get nucleus' in tunnels/caves, so I don't see the need for this.

The problem is that we haven't really seen the possibilities of mapmaking in this game yet (I think). Mostly because it requires a deep understanding of Elite gameplay to make a good map, but it also takes lots and lots of time and testing, and not many players with that level of understanding take the time to make maps.

I'm all for changes to Elite if they add depth and keep the core gameplay intact (fast-paced action for the most part), but giving the defence weapons that make attacker afraid to go out in the open (laser/stungun) is a bad idea from the start if you ask me.

And using laser on defence with the insane reload-time it has now is just so ****** boring I never bother to choose it. Nucleus is still OP tho. Maybe you should change it so that attacker shooting down nucleus gives nucleus 75% reload and attacker 50% reload instead?

[utzutz]

You've to think about the stungun idea being a close-quarter weapon, not having the same range as a rail/laser.

With the same range ability as the laser, you would ultimately slow the game, but with it being something like a taser, it won't slow the game.

If you imagine it to be close-quarter branded gun, you need to be very quick to reach the attacker in early-mid map game, but it can become a defensive weapon in pole situation. However, you'll give up another attacking ability making it a 2on1 game with another one who's able to efficientely reduce the pole-dance ability, but without the ability to take the enemy down. Hence it will become a pretty risky decision to make use of this weapon... but 4 Weapon options are a lil too much, anyways.

As aforementioned, the lasers are heavily situational, or map-depended, considering its influence to the result. Some maps are not effected by the lasers at all, in few you're able to bypass them, but in some they can be a sure-hit ! At the moment, the maps are not created with a laser on def in mind and you definetely feel that, but with different influence. However, I can just imagine pretty cluttered and fence-less maps to become accomodated to "laser def play" - thus I don't want to see those maps. Nucleus still deserve a spot, as it gives a tactical option without influencing the way a map has to be made.

Nucleus are always op considering you can tank the pole, but reducing the actual damage distance might solve that pretty effortlessly.

[Zell]

Nucleus are always op considering you can tank the pole, but reducing the actual damage distance might solve that pretty effortlessly.

With some more testing, I have to say that the Nucleus in my opinion is not overpowered.
It depends on the map. Thing of a map like The Switch.
The area around pole is quite open, so in order to tank the pole, the defenders would have to hide pretty far out. If the attacker goes to pole at 15s, he will have enough time to pick out defenders and wait for the nuclei to pass/explode.

If maps are designed with this in mind, I don't see how any top teams will use nucleus rushing at the pole.

With each big update, so the need for new maps has arisen. As someone mentioned, we need people with a deep understanding of elite to design the maps. So, we need someone with a deep understanding of Beta 3 to design corresponding maps.

Other than that, the laser for defense is indeed quite useless now. Ain't nobody got time for that reload!
So maybe instead of having a useless weapon, make it a taser, or a sticky grenade launcher as has been mentioned.

[MattjA]

From testing, I think that the only real positive thing from Beta 3 (Elite) was the half reload. From playing Beta 3 to Beta 2 I'm always at the stage of saying "Only if this was Beta 3, I'd be able to shoot that guy!"

I think this is a great initiative and I don't think there is much need for the addition of weapons for the defence. If it so happened, I don't think that it would create such a downward spiral on the game.

[Zell]

Last night we played some more Beta 3 with decent-high skilled players, and something happened which imo proves the half-reload regeneration after a hit needs to be nerfed.

On the IPL map Rust, on my attack round I went to the right to the grappling hook jump, knowing that I'd take a rail from the railpad (or maximum 2 in the worst case scenario) but wanting to do my trick jump there anyways.
What happened is I got railed THREE TIMES by the guy on the railpad in the time span that it would take an attacker in beta 2 to shoot ONE SHOT MAXIMUM.

The railpad already has faster reload, so now with the reload regeneration that happens with each hit, this is just a God-mode block on some maps. Unfortunately I was too surprised/confused to save the replay in time....