Why do people complain about Trackmania²?

[Ozon]

Hi

DON'T FEEL ATTACKED BY THIS POST, I WANT TO RAISE A POINT HERE. MY GOAL IS DEFINETLY NOT TO GET PEOPLE ANGRY.


I want to start this thread with a quote from a german game reviewer named "AltF4Games":

But why aren't there so many players in Canyon? Is it because the game sucks? No, the opposite. Canyon is a great and successful game, but trackmania forever was just more successful and people have problems getting away from it's gameplay standards and habits.

September 2009, September:
Hylis announced what most of the people have already known; there will be a new Trackmania! It's called Trackmania². This will be a whole new game, but it should keep it's roots and it's community. The community got a new boost (a red boost in september) and people were waiting so long for the new Trackmania.

Trackmania Canyon; Beta, 2010:
The crowd of players got bigger and with it many old TMF players changed to the new Trackmania. People felt strange driving in this new environment and everything is so different. It's a thing of the POV, but the label "Trackmania" definetly didn't lose it's main fun factors. Especially the TMNF crowd (that is a fact) complained about the gameplay, saying it wasn't compatible for esports and that 20 Euros are too much for an environment.


Trackmania Stadium; Open Beta, 2013:
I recently watched over the forums in the Trackmania² Section and still have to watch people complain about the new things around Trackmania and espacially Stadium, which was implemented mainly because of the screams of the Nations Community, which threatened the Nadeo team with not buying their games or not supporting Maniaplanet if there won't be a Stadium update (asap).

Well, now try to imagine no Trackmania has ever existed before. Also forget especially your experience on Stadium. Maniaplanet is a new gaming platform. You are new to it.
If you're imagining it right, you wouldn't even have the need to complain about the handling a car does or the skidmarks it doesn't. You would play, as before; of course, there are always things, you dislike in a game, but you won't register in this forum just to make threads about "Maniaplanet is going down" or "Developers do nothing for what I've said". You would be happy with that, what you have.

You have esport, you have servers(, you have still bugs but a forum for it) and you have people around you, who want to have fun. You would totally fall for this game.


I see the main problem in the success of the Trackmania(s) before.

People wanted to have a change, but for most of the players Trackmania Forever was already perfect. They miss features they won't have again and dislike some new things, which others expected Nadeo to implement.

And it's good, that this game is something completely different.

People will get used to this game faster than I can get my ass of the couch. I strongly believe in most of the formerly great players, who e.g. dislike the new Stadium (I don't need to use names here), that they will some time say "You know what? I didn't like the change, I missed most of the things I had before and the developers just ignored my tips, which could lead to a greater success. But in the end, I enjoy this game as it is. (Also because of me discussing in the forums )."

It's hard to get used on new things in a short term. So await the new things, instead of hopping in the past!

I hope you get my point. If not now, maybe in a few weeks, months or years. I will always head to new things in the future as a positive player. If I miss the old times, I still have Trackmania Forever. But at this moment, I am so happy about Maniaplanet, and I couldn't even remember that I had more fun with TMF.

Stay positive, be patient, be nice and don't drink and drive!
Dennis Keller aka //Killa ProD.! (now driving for Germany)!

[Smigles]

I mainly complain because of one thing, and I bet most know what it is ^^

Apart from that, I like the game

[SiH13]

Usual quote:

"i wont buy tm2 until i get a new (updated) stadium" "i want a superstadium"

tm2: s: everything is the same but improved. custom blocks, matchmaker, titles, new blocks (coming) ++
its only 9€

"i wont buy this because it costs, whats new, its the same etc" "9€ is too expencive (for a game ive enjoyed for free since 2006 and i love the community. he** no i aint supporting it)"

I don't understand people

[TMarc]

A new stuff is only good, when the older stuff does not exist anymore

Canyon is just not as successfull because it is a remake of older environments, and not that dramatically better to completely attract TMUF/TMN players, and because until now it stands alone.

And look at the complaints of TMN players, whatever Nadeo is doing with TrackMania²Stadium, it is not good enough.
Big deception when we got to know Stadium is 1:1 there. Now we know (GA conference last Sunday) there will be new blocks for Stadium. But will this be enough?

Some are waiting for Valley, some are waiting for multi-title servers, some are waiting for Stadium.
And not everyone likes the Canyon environment, despite of the heavy modding already available.
Let's see in 10 years, what people then think about TM² and TM

[hackie]

Usual quote:

"i wont buy tm2 until i get a new (updated) stadium" "i want a superstadium"

tm2: s: everything is the same but improved. custom blocks, matchmaker, titles, new blocks (coming) ++
its only 9€

"i wont buy this because it costs, whats new, its the same etc" "9€ is too expencive (for a game ive enjoyed for free since 2006 and i love the community. he** no i aint supporting it)"



First , it's still beta.
Second , it's almost the same as tmnf because A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING AND WANT IT TO BE THE SAME ( almost ), so ye what you expect.


Nice first post btw.

[haenry]

You'll never start to love something unless you don't try it!

I completely agree. Canyon isn't perfect and there are things I like more in United than in Canyon. But it is also the other way around. I can list so many things I loved to have and Maniaplanet brought them to us (just take a look at eyebo's "40 reasons why I love Trackmania")
If I look back now, I realize how much time has passed since I started playing Canyon. More than one and a half years (started in Beta in 2011) and I still enjoy the game as much as I did in the first months. Not as much as on the first day though, but you can never beat that feeling again.

I enjoy Canyon and complaining would only ruin my fun
Mind the difference between complaining stupidly and giving constructive feedbacks!

Right now I value what we have with Maniaplanet and await future updates such as the "Iceberg"

[bgphantom]

i complain because they changed cam 2 and its now a bit stupid... and second reason is because they changed grip physic and its not same at all as its on forever/eswc,atleast not for fs players.so i really dont want to accept that changes and i dont play it.If they change it as it was in forever i would like to buy it.
Problem is that physic is same as its in canyon and that i dislike for real.Only steering is same as its in forever.

Ar /wind

[eyebo]

Trackmania Canyon; Beta, 2010:

Actually it was 2011.

Otherwise, I enjoyed your post. Some interesting thoughts.

[stevenamtaan]

There will always be the whingers and whiners for these games.
For me , the wait for TM2 was an exciting time as this was to be a whole new experience and I was impressed the first time I drove the Canyon environment and wwooooww.. .. the beautiful graphics,feelings and scenery changes..
Not for one moment did I try to compare Canyon with a previous envi of TM1, afterall, this is a completely new game...
There are perhaps toooo many people stuck in the past and not really willing to move on and therefore criticize and ridicule TM2. Many Stadium and TM1 drivers understandably don't like the way the Canyon cars pyshics are but for me I think they are excellent in most driving situations but not all.
And so now we also have Stadium brought into TM2. A step backwards for me as the whole new experience for TM2 is now changed as we have an envi that has been around since the beginning but I accept Nadeo's decision .
Many many pages within the forums of the whingers and whiners.. aaaaaawwww.. ..what , I have to pay for Stadium2(full access) but i've been playing stadium since 2006 for free ...boooohooooo.. and now you want me to pay >10 bucks.. I don't like the cam2 .. booohooo. I'm feel sorry for those people that feel that >$10 is tooo higher price to pay.. It is a free beta atm and so i'm sure Nadeo will look at all the relevant issues. Afterall , what other game/activity can you have hundreds/thousands of hours of enjoyment for a mere >$10 -$20<. This is 2013 and do these whiners work for free?? ... neither do developers , programmers , graphic artists, etc etc.. so wake up.
And in the near future we should have TM2 Valley.. and once again the forums will be filled with the whingers and whiners complaints.. aaaaawwwww.. what , I have to buy Valley?? I bought Canyon/stadium.. shouldn't I get Valley for free??..boooohoooooo.. I don't like this pyshics ... there not like Rally,Desert,Coast etc etc.
So for those that can't accept TM2, those that do will end up with a much greater satisfaction and far greater experience than those who stay stuck with the past.
Its time to look forward to a brighter future and a greater fullfillment of the games within TM2 instead of trying to make comparisons of the past with todays games.
Great work Nadeo , keep it up and i'll keep on drivin' .. ..

[eyebo]

I actually think most of the "complaining" about TM2C is over. People either like it or they don't. As Hylis has said, it's a very polarizing environment. I think that's fine. And I don't really see a lot of forum posts trying to nag about it anymore.

Regarding TM2S, I think the main things I see people concerned about are:

--- Price ---

Problem: Some people think they should get TM2S (or TM2V) free if they already bought TM2C. Or just free because TMN and TMNF were free.

Reality Check: Sequels cost money. Sequels should cost money. Developers have to eat. Not just that, but games are made as a business. Businesses are run to make money. That having been said, TM2S will still have a free version, limited in some ways, but free nonetheless. TMNF was also limited in some ways with the addition of freezone. In my opinion, TM2S will not have some of the annoying restrictions of freezone, and you won't have to buy 6 additional environments you won't play anyway just to get more features. So the new TM2S is a much better and more balanced solution.

--- Different Cam2 ---

Problem: Cam2 is different than it was in TMNF. Many don't like it. I get it. It's hard to learn something new. I'd probably be QQing if they changed my Cam1 view.

Workaround: Varies depending on the person. You could return to TMNF until it is changed. You could try to learn Cam1. Or you could try to learn the new Cam2.

Solution: Hylis has already said they will probably change it in an upcoming update. This is beta. Thanks for testing.

--- New lighting engine ---

Problem: Canyon track authors had to get used to the new lighting engine too. Only, they didn't have old maps that were not designed for it. Some builders still built sections that were too dark. This would happen because they would build the map and validate without a lightmap, and then at the very end would compute shadows and save the map. Then there were really dark passages or important corners in deep shadows. Eventually builders learned that lighting was as important an element as other aspects of scenery and signage. The issue with Stadium is that people are just importing tons of old maps and not taking into account the new lighting at all. This isn't Nadeo's fault, but the fault of players.

Solution: The solution is with the players. I think in time this will be remedied by track builders who are taking lighting into account while building, and by server owners who go through their map lists and remove maps that are unsuitable for online. My advice is to put the gameplay experience of drivers ahead of your feelings of nostalgia for old maps. Don't be afraid to delete a map even if it was a classic in TMNF. Meanwhile, authors of classic tracks can update the lighting on their maps so they work better in TM2S. Consider changing mood from Day to Sunset, to enable the lights at the edges of the roads and on other blocks.

--- Incorrect forced cams in imported maps ---

Problem: In TMN and TMNF it was common that track authors would force Cam3 (bumper cam) for loops, and also often for wallrides. From what I understand, importing maps from TMN or TMNF into TM2 has caused some of this MT work in some maps to change to a different forced cam. So instead of getting a forced cam3 (bumper cam) in loops, people are getting forced cam2. And because it's forced, drivers can't override it. This makes some maps extremely difficult to drive.

Workaround: Server owners need to check their maps by driving all of them and ensuring the cams all work as desired. Besides that, authors who are converting their old maps need to check that all the cams still work before releasing their map on MX or uploading it to a server.

Solution: Nadeo could fix the way maps are imported so that old cams do not break/change.

--- Nothing new on the surface ---

Problem: If you look at the block selection and the gameplay itself, TM2S is pretty much the same as TMNF. We knew this when TM2S was first announced, as the promotional material said the gameplay would be kept the same. Some wanted something different, something updated. Not something as different as Canyon, but a new Stadium, new blocks, a new experience. Something to spice things up in Stadium after 5 years of the same environment.

Solution: Patience. TM2S is now part of ManiaPlanet where it can receive updates far into the future. Look at TM2C. The game was released in 2011. Yet we received new Canyon blocks in mid 2012 and in early 2013. Besides that, new features are continually added to ManiaPlanet that affect TM2C. And bugs continue to be fixed, even though the game was released almost 2 years ago. TM2S can receive the same love and attention now that it is part of ManiaPlanet. Patience is all that is required.

--

I'd say that what we sometimes perceive as complaining by other posters could also be viewed simply as feedback from passionate players who want to love the game. They end up expressing that with sometimes very emotional posts. Maybe we don't understand why they care so much for a certain feature. But they do. And I don't think they would post at all if they didn't care. So I'm glad they're here.

Sometimes people are simply misinformed. There's a lot of misinformation out there about TM2S in the interwebs. If we know something for certain, the best we can do is to correct them in a kind way and provide a source so they know the information is factual.

Hylis always tells us that it's important to express how we feel about a certain feature or problem and why we feel that way. It's not always best to try and tell our idea of how to fix it. The developers can act more on feelings. Sometimes to express those feelings, we have to express our dissatisfaction. On the flipside, I think it's also important to say what things we do like, and that's why I posted my recent "top 40 reasons I love TrackMania 2" post.

If I have one serious complaint, it isn't about Nadeo or about the game itself, it's about some posters here. To varying degrees of severity, I see people throw the wild accusation that Nadeo as developers are incompetent. Why? Because they're not doing something the way you think it should be done. It's a very selfish and immature attitude. And it only reflects negatively on the person who posts such things.

My request: Respect other players, respect the developers, and respect yourself. Life will go much better for you if you learn respect.